64 replies to this topic

[laird]

I wasn't just talking about all the mechanical bits "being" there, I was talking about them being setup correctly. Have you had the engine apart or changed the cam-belt? Are the cams setup ok? Is the turbo contol working ok? Is the turbo itself ok? Are all the sensors working ok? etc.

First you should check the boost level at high rpms by bypassing the ECU boost control. If it won't hold boost with an EBC or MBC etc, then it doesn't matter what you do - you will never get the power.

I had the engine apart to install the rods and pistons and the cams are where they are supposed to be. Compression is 160 across the board. I have used another TCV and have used an MBC. I don't really know what Sensors I should be looking at. I have wondered if the Knock sensors could be TU but other than that, where do I look. The 19T was brand new when I installed it last year. I have taken out the CBV and found it to be fine. If I stay out of WOT, not hitting the kickdown, I get all kinds of boost but at WOT, it imediately drops. I will wire the wastgate closed if needs be to figure out if I can make boost. Other than the tune, I am out of answers.

[EricF]

What is your cam timing set at?

Those air/fuel ratios are very poor, but sometimes you get strange readings when cars are on dynos with certain tunes.. However, the timing is horrendous. All those short wavelength-looking variations are the timing just being horrifically off and the ECU adjusting and the engine reacting as best it can. I would first be interested to see where the cams are set at, and ask RICA what they recommend. Also, who did you buy your tune from? (I hate to ask, but I have to)

If it's George, hopefully you can work something out for a re-tune with RICA, show them the dyno chart, tell them it's a freshly rebuilt engine that runs perfectly with a lot of new components, and their tune is absolutely unacceptable. You just have a 19T, they should be able to give you an accurate tune for that.

[turbotuner]

I had the engine apart to install the rods and pistons and the cams are where they are supposed to be. Compression is 160 across the board. I have used another TCV and have used an MBC. I don't really know what Sensors I should be looking at. I have wondered if the Knock sensors could be TU but other than that, where do I look. The 19T was brand new when I installed it last year. I have taken out the CBV and found it to be fine. If I stay out of WOT, not hitting the kickdown, I get all kinds of boost but at WOT, it imediately drops. I will wire the wastgate closed if needs be to figure out if I can make boost. Other than the tune, I am out of answers.

If you have used an MBC and it's still not holding boost, then that indicates some problem with flow, either caused by a restriction, or by a leak, or cam timing etc.

If for whatever reason the ECU is seeing less load than it's supposed to, then ignition timing will also be out since timing at lower loads is set higher than timing for higher loads. Fueling will also be affected by load.

Does it hold boost at part throttle in the high rpm?

In terms of the map, it's perfectly normal for it to take several attempts for a good custom tune, especially with the other engine mods you have done. Don't expect it to be right first time - that's part and parcel of custom tuning. The good thing is that you have collected dyno data so that things can be adjusted accordingly, rather than just guessing. Good data logging is the key to a successful tune!

Edited by turbotuner, 27 November 2008 - 06:34 PM.

[lookforjoe]

If you read the albeit poor chart, you will see that the 222HP came at 13psi. Which by the way, proves a long standing argument that no matter the size of the turbo, the same level of boost will provide the same level of power all other things being equal.

I think that's only true in the optimal operating window for the specific turbo - since once you move above that, you're pushing hot air instead - 18psi on a 16T will not give the same output as 18psi on A 19T

[laird]

The car will hold boost at part throttle.. all the way to redline. I fully expect to need a couple of shots at the tune to get it right, that's why I went to the dyno.
The cam timing is set to stock specs.
Using an MBC (even bypassing the TCV entirely) raises the overall boost levels but still, WOT at redline drops to 15psi.
The RICA tune in fact came from George, theoretically, he set it up for my current setup. I am willing to deal with RICA directly and send the ECU to Holland if that will help, it seems George has gone missing.

[Chilled Man]

I think that's only true in the optimal operating window for the specific turbo - since once you move above that, you're pushing hot air instead - 18psi on a 16T will not give the same output as 18psi on A 19T

I can personally attest to that

18psi on a 16t feels like 16psi on a 19t

there is a huge difference

[turbotuner]

The car will hold boost at part throttle.. all the way to redline. The cam timing is set to stock specs.

In that case it probably just needs a map tweak. The more detailed info you give them, the better the results will be. Good luck and hope you get it sorted.

Edited by turbotuner, 28 November 2008 - 01:47 AM.

[Yellow95]

If you read the albeit poor chart, you will see that the 222HP came at 13psi. Which by the way, proves a long standing argument that no matter the size of the turbo, the same level of boost will provide the same level of power all other things being equal.

That is funny. I was just telling Hussein that the funniest shit aI had ever read on this board was about 3 years ago. Kevin was telling a guy that 15lbs from a 15G was different then 15lbs from an 18T. I laughed so hard I almost pissed my pants. I knew right then that i had to sign up on VS. Thats like saying a 12 ounce can of Heineken holds more beer then a 12 ounce can of Miller.

Gary

I can personally attest to that

18psi on a 16t feels like 16psi on a 19t

there is a huge difference

Justin, If you make me piss my pants........

[Zaitz]

Gary, I really think that is a true statement. The smaller turbo is going to heat the air much more at higher boost, making it less dense. The larger compressor on the 19t is going to heat the air less. Cooler temperatures = more dense air. This should translate to more power.

[shanehutton]

Yep, boost going into the engine will be the same psi but the smaller turbo (if out of it's range) will have heated the air so much that it causes the ecu to back off due to detonation. In this case, the 19T would deliver more power (but not really more boost).

Same reason a car has more power on a cold day then a really hot day.

[Yellow95]

Gary, I really think that is a true statement. The smaller turbo is going to heat the air much more at higher boost, making it less dense. The larger compressor on the 19t is going to heat the air less. Cooler temperatures = more dense air. This should translate to more power.

I agree at the maximum effeciency range of the smaller turbo, but is 7 lbs of boost from an 18T different then 7lbs of boost from a 13G? I also truly hope that everyone understands that heat is a byproduct of compressing air regardless of the size of the turbo. There is no turbo out there that doesnt heat the charge while compressing it. I have had a 13G, 15G, 16T and 3 18T's and my buttometer can tell no difference at 15lbs of boost from any of them (excluding the 13G as I never went that high with boost) except that the 15G and 16T faded quicker.

Gary

Yep, boost going into the engine will be the same psi but the smaller turbo (if out of it's range) will have heated the air so much that it causes the ecu to back off due to detonation. In this case, the 19T would deliver more power (but not really more boost).

Same reason a car has more power on a cold day then a really hot day.

Exactly how it should be said. Not "15lbs of boost on an 18T is different then 15lbs of boost an a 15G."

G

[Zaitz]

I agree at the maximum effeciency range of the smaller turbo, but is 7 lbs of boost from an 18T different then 7lbs of boost from a 13G? I also truly hope that everyone understands that heat is a byproduct of compressing air regardless of the size of the turbo. There is no turbo out there that doesnt heat the charge while compressing it. I have had a 13G, 15G, 16T and 3 18T's and my buttometer can tell no difference at 15lbs of boost from any of them (excluding the 13G as I never went that high with boost) except that the 15G and 16T faded quicker.

Gary




Exactly how it should be said. Not "15lbs of boost on an 18T is different then 15lbs of boost an a 15G."

G

I think it's more of an issue at high boost, according to Corky Bell. You may also need a larger compressor to exemplify the difference. I am running 15psi right now and it feels loads faster than 15psi on the other two 850R's we have. I have more mods, but the difference is pretty large. I think the wagon is actually at 17psi and the 15psi from the 20g definitely feels stronger. A hell of a lot stronger, especially up top. Here is the quote from Maximum Boost, "With a small turbo, the maximum efficiency point peaks early, and temperatures will be lowest at low boost pressures. To keep temperatures down at high power outputs, a large turbo is clearly necessary. As the maximum efficiency point occurs at higher and higher rpm, cooler temperatures also occur. Cooler temperatures mean denser air, which keeps torque peaks at higher rpm."

[TorqueSteer]

If you are comparing the td04 family of turbos, sure there wont be much of a different between them at 10 psi. But I can tell you for a fact that when I ran my td05 super16g at 9psi, it was much more powerful than the td04-16t at 9psi. I The same for 13psi, 17psi, and 20 psi. I wont attribute this to a cooler intake charge, but simply because the exhaust housing was larger, and I opened up a bottleneck. So yes, two different turbos can deliver two different power levels at the same psi.

[nolanator]

can unsprung weight such as heavy wheels and tires affect dyno results?

[loseR99]

can unsprung weight such as heavy wheels and tires affect dyno results?

Not as much as on the streets or track. Probably insignificant on the dyno. I'm not saying rolling on 20's would not have an effect. But plus sized wheels and tires in 17" or 18" will probably not be noticeable.

[nolanator]

Not as much as on the streets or track. Probably insignificant on the dyno. I'm not saying rolling on 20's would not have an effect. But plus sized wheels and tires in 17" or 18" will probably not be noticeable.

the reason i ask is because i recently found out that my chrome perfos weigh in a whopping 40+ pounds. that's pretty much ridiculous given the average 16" wheel weighs what...like 18-21lbs. might as well be rolling on 20s...i hate these wheels

[Yellow95]

If you are comparing the td04 family of turbos, sure there wont be much of a different between them at 10 psi. But I can tell you for a fact that when I ran my td05 super16g at 9psi, it was much more powerful than the td04-16t at 9psi. I The same for 13psi, 17psi, and 20 psi. I wont attribute this to a cooler intake charge, but simply because the exhaust housing was larger, and I opened up a bottleneck. So yes, two different turbos can deliver two different power levels at the same psi.

So it came on quicker...........

[rynodyno312]

the reason i ask is because i recently found out that my chrome perfos weigh in a whopping 40+ pounds. that's pretty much ridiculous given the average 16" wheel weighs what...like 18-21lbs. might as well be rolling on 20s...i hate these wheels

That has to be with tires. No way perfos weigh 40lbs by themselves.

[TorqueSteer]

So it came on quicker...........

Nope, the turbo actually spools slower. Once the boost was built and I was holding 9 psi, the pull was harder, to me thats more power.

[loseR99]

the reason i ask is because i recently found out that my chrome perfos weigh in a whopping 40+ pounds. that's pretty much ridiculous given the average 16" wheel weighs what...like 18-21lbs. might as well be rolling on 20s...i hate these wheels

That does seem ridiculously heavy. I could understand them being 20-25 lbs a piece, with tire and air'd up probably 35-40lbs, but that's wheel and tire. My enkei & toyo combo weighs in at about 33lbs total, but then again, i've also got 4 lug nuts and a 4cyl, not 5 lug bolts and a 5cyl (not that they're at all related, haha). Not sure what my dad's S60 T5 wheels weigh, he's got continentals on Voxx MG's. I know his oem Tethys (is that right...Tethys?) weighed a good bit, over 20lbs a piece.