Jump to content


FCP Euro

- - - - -

Dyno Results


64 replies to this topic

#41 Boost3237

    Went Full Retard

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Delray Beach Florida
  • Crew:CFL

Posted 28 November 2008 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE (Yellow95 @ Nov 28 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree at the maximum effeciency range of the smaller turbo, but is 7 lbs of boost from an 18T different then 7lbs of boost from a 13G? I also truly hope that everyone understands that heat is a byproduct of compressing air regardless of the size of the turbo. There is no turbo out there that doesnt heat the charge while compressing it. I have had a 13G, 15G, 16T and 3 18T's and my buttometer can tell no difference at 15lbs of boost from any of them (excluding the 13G as I never went that high with boost) except that the 15G and 16T faded quicker.

Gary




Exactly how it should be said. Not "15lbs of boost on an 18T is different then 15lbs of boost an a 15G."

G



there are so many variables to consider when comparing 2 different sized turbos and their efficiency at a particular psi. Since we are talking about td04's I feel the physical difference that exists between them is so small it shouldn't matter. But I can say I did feel a difference between the 15G and 19T at the same psi when I changed them out on my car. Again the difference really doesn't matter until you exceed the efficiency of said turbo(s).
Engine build is still up for sale PM me for details.

#42 loseR99

    Level 2 Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta, GA
  • Crew:CFL

Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:00 PM

QUOTE (Boost3237 @ Nov 28 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
there are so many variables to consider when comparing 2 different sized turbos and their efficiency at a particular psi. Since we are talking about td04's I feel the physical difference that exists between them is so small it shouldn't matter. But I can say I did feel a difference between the 15G and 19T at the same psi when I changed them out on my car. Again the difference really doesn't matter until you exceed the efficiency of said turbo(s).


Do all of the TD04 housing share the same size turbine wheel but have different compressor wheels? My original was a TD04-12T twin-scroll, swapped to a TD04-14T, i've got a 16T on the shelf, just not sure if I can swap CHRA, or do I need to modify a 5cyl whiteblock manifold, or utilize the autotech adapter plate for my 4cyl whiteblock mani.

As far as comparing efficiency of two similar but different TD04 housing turbos, wouldn't we just need to look at compressor maps to determine the difference in CFM for different boost pressures? It's the CFM difference that makes the difference in power, it's not a "this turbo on this boost vs that turbo on that boost argument." If both are boosting 15psi, they'll both be flowing different CFM's. Feel free to correct me if someone has a better understanding than me, this is just the logic i've gathered thus far.

Posted Image

1999 V70R AWD FWD - Laser Blue - IPD polys, SharpHIDs, Eggcrate, TKI Endlinks, Marshall Instruments LED boost gauge, SNABB Pipe, Stylin Intercooler Hoses

2001 Volvo S40 1.9T - heavily modded 250hp 300ftlb - SOLD and missed often.



#43 nolanator

    Level 3 Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,461 posts
  • Interests:automotive mechanics, fitness, and mixed martial arts
  • Location:Oxnard, California
  • Crew:SCC

Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE (rynodyno312 @ Nov 28 2008, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That has to be with tires. No way perfos weigh 40lbs by themselves.


i'm not sure, but i did come accross two posts in here that said they weighed 45lbs. a piece.

#44 Boost3237

    Went Full Retard

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Delray Beach Florida
  • Crew:CFL

Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (1clean01 @ Nov 28 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do all of the TD04 housing share the same size turbine wheel but have different compressor wheels? My original was a TD04-12T twin-scroll, swapped to a TD04-14T, i've got a 16T on the shelf, just not sure if I can swap CHRA, or do I need to modify a 5cyl whiteblock manifold, or utilize the autotech adapter plate for my 4cyl whiteblock mani. The blades will differ from a 15g to a 16t but I's pretty sure they are the same froma 14T to a 16T and any td04 wheel will fit any td04 shaft. so to answer you YES same size wheel but different blade orientation.

As far as comparing efficiency of two similar but different TD04 housing turbos, wouldn't we just need to look at compressor maps to determine the difference in CFM for different boost pressures? It's the CFM difference that makes the difference in power, it's not a "this turbo on this boost vs that turbo on that boost argument." If both are boosting 15psi, they'll both be flowing different CFM's. Feel free to correct me if someone has a better understanding than me, this is just the logic i've gathered thus far. Yes this is what I was talking about. CFM vs psi is just one of the things to consider


Engine build is still up for sale PM me for details.

#45 laird

    Level 3 Member

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaysville, Utah
  • Crew:___

Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:18 AM





Justin, If you make me piss my pants........wink.gif
[/quote]

What weighs more? A ton of feathers or a ton of lead?

When you compress a volume of air to a specific pressure, heat is generated. It doesn't matter how you do it, or what you do it with, the amount of heat generated will be the same.

Posted Image
1997 850 R, 1998 S70 GLT, 1998 S70 NA (parts car), 1999 S70 NA, 1998 V70 NA, 1969 MGC.

#46 Zaitz

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 1,829 posts
  • Location:St. Paul, MN
  • Crew:___

Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:40 AM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 28 2008, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Justin, If you make me piss my pants........wink.gif


What weighs more? A ton of feathers or a ton of lead?

When you compress a volume of air to a specific pressure, heat is generated. It doesn't matter how you do it, or what you do it with, the amount of heat generated will be the same.
That is wrong.



Try a 15g at 20psi and see how it feels compared to something larger.

#47 laird

    Level 3 Member

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaysville, Utah
  • Crew:___

Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:45 AM

Sounds like you have figured out how to turn dogshit into gold.
Posted Image
1997 850 R, 1998 S70 GLT, 1998 S70 NA (parts car), 1999 S70 NA, 1998 V70 NA, 1969 MGC.

#48 Zaitz

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 1,829 posts
  • Location:St. Paul, MN
  • Crew:___

Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 28 2008, 09:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sounds like you have figured out how to turn dogshit into gold.

So, to you, compressor efficiency is the same for every wheel? Why then did you 'uprade' to a 19t? You can get a 15g to push over 20psi. You aren't even running that on the 19t.

Taken from WothRline, a respected Volvo tuner:

"If you force the turbocharger outside its working area, boost pressure will increase but outside the pump area it will create much heat and less power."

At the same pressure ratio, a higher efficiency compressor has more density. Like stated earlier. The intercooler will not make up all of the difference.


You also have to look at air flow in CFM of a larger compressor at the same pressure ratio. Take a look at these 2 compressor maps. At the same pressure ratio, the 15g flows less.



Garretturbo quote: "Compressors with higher efficiency give lower manifold temperatures."

#49 laird

    Level 3 Member

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaysville, Utah
  • Crew:___

Posted 29 November 2008 - 11:51 PM

At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 19t CAN flow 500 CFM.
At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 15g CAN flow 428 CFM.

If we are talking about the same load (or engine), you cannot make the engine accept more air without raising the pressure.
There is no magic bullet here. Blow through a straw, you can increase the flow in one of two ways. Get a larger diameter straw,
or increase the pressure.

If I use a GT60 that can flow 2000CFM at a PR of 2.0, What kind of temps will I see? If my engine demand is only 350CFM, that
will also be way outside the compressors "efficiency range". Will that also raise the temp?

This is from Stealth 316.

"This bears repeating one more time. Just because a turbo is rated at 500 cfm @ 2.0 PR does not mean that the turbo flows that amount of air in our 3L V6 engine at 15 psi boost pressure. The engine mass air flow is determined by the displacement, the RPM, the volumetric efficiency, and the air density (or plenum air pressure and temperature). At a given RPM and at the same plenum air pressure and temperature, the same amount of air flows regardless of which turbo is used."
Posted Image
1997 850 R, 1998 S70 GLT, 1998 S70 NA (parts car), 1999 S70 NA, 1998 V70 NA, 1969 MGC.

#50 Zaitz

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 1,829 posts
  • Location:St. Paul, MN
  • Crew:___

Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:06 AM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 29 2008, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 19t CAN flow 500 CFM.
At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 15g CAN flow 428 CFM.

If we are talking about the same load (or engine), you cannot make the engine accept more air without raising the pressure.
There is no magic bullet here. Blow through a straw, you can increase the flow in one of two ways. Get a larger diameter straw,
or increase the pressure.

If I use a GT60 that can flow 2000CFM at a PR of 2.0, What kind of temps will I see? If my engine demand is only 350CFM, that
will also be way outside the compressors "efficiency range". Will that also raise the temp?

This is from Stealth 316.

"This bears repeating one more time. Just because a turbo is rated at 500 cfm @ 2.0 PR does not mean that the turbo flows that amount of air in our 3L V6 engine at 15 psi boost pressure. The engine mass air flow is determined by the displacement, the RPM, the volumetric efficiency, and the air density (or plenum air pressure and temperature). At a given RPM and at the same plenum air pressure and temperature, the same amount of air flows regardless of which turbo is used."

So why did you upgrade to a 19t if the 15g can make the same pressures that you are running? You have no concept of compressor efficiency.

#51 laird

    Level 3 Member

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaysville, Utah
  • Crew:___

Posted 30 November 2008 - 05:27 AM

QUOTE (Zaitz @ Nov 29 2008, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So why did you upgrade to a 19t if the 15g can make the same pressures that you are running? You have no concept of compressor efficiency.



Oh yeah?
Posted Image
1997 850 R, 1998 S70 GLT, 1998 S70 NA (parts car), 1999 S70 NA, 1998 V70 NA, 1969 MGC.

#52 Boost3237

    Went Full Retard

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Delray Beach Florida
  • Crew:CFL

Posted 30 November 2008 - 05:43 AM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 30 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh yeah?



ok.. so help me understand how lets say for example a 13g flows 360cfm at 15psi and a 15g flows 400cfm at 15psi... how is it that the power output would be the same?
Engine build is still up for sale PM me for details.

#53 JCviggen

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,723 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Crew:___

Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 29 2008, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 19t CAN flow 500 CFM.
At a pressure ratio of 2.0 the 15g CAN flow 428 CFM.

If we are talking about the same load (or engine), you cannot make the engine accept more air without raising the pressure.


Those statements are correct, but keep in mind compressor efficiency at a given PR and air flow level.



At 428 CFM PR 2.0 the 15G is running at an efficiency of 60%. At the same PR 2.0 and 428 CFM of flow the 19T is on the 70% efficiency line.

The end result is that althrough they are moving the same volume of air, they are not moving the same amount of oxygen, which is wat matters. The 19T's output will be cooler and thus denser, with more oxygen in it. More powa! biggrin.gif

If a compressor was running at 100% efficiency, it would STILL be putting out quite HOT air. Compression raises temperature its as simple as that. Efficiency deals with how much more heat is added than there would be in ideal conditions.
854 T-5R...will be back soon.
Posted Image
All my vids on YouTube
546bhp RS6 V8 DD

#54 Zaitz

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 1,829 posts
  • Location:St. Paul, MN
  • Crew:___

Posted 30 November 2008 - 01:41 PM

QUOTE (JCviggen @ Nov 30 2008, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Those statements are correct, but keep in mind compressor efficiency at a given PR and air flow level.



At 428 CFM PR 2.0 the 15G is running at an efficiency of 60%. At the same PR 2.0 and 428 CFM of flow the 19T is on the 70% efficiency line.

The end result is that althrough they are moving the same volume of air, they are not moving the same amount of oxygen, which is wat matters. The 19T's output will be cooler and thus denser, with more oxygen in it. More powa! biggrin.gif

If a compressor was running at 100% efficiency, it would STILL be putting out quite HOT air. Compression raises temperature its as simple as that. Efficiency deals with how much more heat is added than there would be in ideal conditions.

And that is what I have been trying to say.

Threadjack: JCviggen, I hear you like 5w50. What kind do you run and where do you get it?

#55 Boost3237

    Went Full Retard

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Delray Beach Florida
  • Crew:CFL

Posted 30 November 2008 - 03:00 PM

QUOTE (JCviggen @ Nov 30 2008, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Those statements are correct, but keep in mind compressor efficiency at a given PR and air flow level.



At 428 CFM PR 2.0 the 15G is running at an efficiency of 60%. At the same PR 2.0 and 428 CFM of flow the 19T is on the 70% efficiency line.

The end result is that althrough they are moving the same volume of air, they are not moving the same amount of oxygen, which is wat matters. The 19T's output will be cooler and thus denser, with more oxygen in it. More powa! biggrin.gif

If a compressor was running at 100% efficiency, it would STILL be putting out quite HOT air. Compression raises temperature its as simple as that. Efficiency deals with how much more heat is added than there would be in ideal conditions.


agreed +1
Engine build is still up for sale PM me for details.

#56 laird

    Level 3 Member

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaysville, Utah
  • Crew:___

Posted 30 November 2008 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Boost3237 @ Nov 29 2008, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ok.. so help me understand how lets say for example a 13g flows 360cfm at 15psi and a 15g flows 400cfm at 15psi... how is it that the power output would be the same?


If your engine demand is lets say 400CFM at redline, the 19t will in theory, supply that demand at 15psi while the 13g could not do so at the same pressure. It may supply the demand at a diferent pressure ratio but require more energy from the turbine to do it. This is all part of the "efficiency" rating.

JC(?), I still don't under stand how a given volume of air can have a different volume of Oxygen unless you change the density of that volume. Is this what I am missing? ( Ok I reread that and that is what you said I think) Which brings me back to my original thinking, when you compress a volume of air to a certain pressure (density), the temperature rise is a constant.
I get that the compressor has a "window" of efficiency, to the left (on a compressor flow map) of ideal that is "surge" or not enough energy from the turbine to supply consistent boost. I also get that to the right of ideal is "Choke" wherein more "spin does not equate to more flow.
Posted Image
1997 850 R, 1998 S70 GLT, 1998 S70 NA (parts car), 1999 S70 NA, 1998 V70 NA, 1969 MGC.

#57 EricF

    tbricks spy

  • OH Moderator
  • 4,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hollywood, FL
  • Crew:LBC

Posted 01 December 2008 - 05:09 AM

How much air in terms of volume being flowed is only really dependent upon the engine's displacement, its volumetric efficiency at a given RPM, and the pressure ratio. What varies from compressor to compressor is how efficient the compressor is at that given flow point plotted on a compressor map in terms of pressure ratio vs. CFM, and therefore what mass of oxygen exists in that fixed volume of air, as the compressors vary from one to the next in terms of their efficiency level (essentially how well it compresses compared to the ideal temperature rise).

Also for those of you comparing much larger turbos should not neglect the difference in turbine size.. The TD04HL hot side I would say is a pretty large difference from conical to angle-outlet housing, and beyond that our larger GT-series turbines as well as a typical Stage 3 T3 turbine or even a TD05 would move your mid-high RPM volumetric efficiency up quite a bit. Then you're moving more volume at the same boost levels as you would be on the smaller turbos, in addition to probably moving up to much denser air thanks to the corresponding larger compressor.

We are often comparing a 15G to a 19T and a 13G to a 16T and so on and so forth. These turbos all share the same turbine wheels, and very often the same turbine housings. This means, that if you are upgrading from say a straight-outlet 15G to a straight-outlet 18T, and change nothing else, you are essentially *only* changing the compressor. And the differences you'll see in your setup will stem from only that difference in compressor efficiency at whatever boost level you are running.

However, if you go from say a conical-outlet 15G to an angle-outlet 19T, you are also going to be changing your volumetric efficiency quite a bit above maybe 3500 RPM. So you will not be at the same place on the compressor map from one turbo to the next, as with the previous example. You will also be pushing your point over to the right, as in more CFM at the same pressure ratio. Now, this obviously would be a much more drastic difference if you were to change from a conical 15G to a TD05-16G(big) or something even bigger. You'll continue to pick up more and more VE points at higher RPM the bigger turbine side you have. The downside of course is a loss in spool time, along with the fact that your stock rods like to pretzel really more or less just beyond what the 19T is capable of. (or just short of what it's capable of if you do not have a sufficient tune laugh.gif)

Anyway, I'm starting to feel like a nerd so I'm done rambling for now.

Laird, you have some serious issues going on with the running state of your car, and I really can't begin to think of where to look other than cam timing and your tune. It looks like your ignition timing is all over the place, and there is no reason you should have boost fall-off with a 19T like that.. Both the torque curve and the power curve are very wrong, and the choppiness is almost worrying. Your peak torque should be about 1000 RPM higher, and your horsepower should be about 40-50 whp higher, both curves should look more organic by quite a huge margin and your power should continue to rise until maybe 5500 or so before it starts to plateau and then taper off. Hopefully RICA will get your dyno chart back along with your ECU and say "whoops, didn't mean to solder *that* chip in there" and then you'll get it back with the right tune and be delighted. From what I can see that's about the only possibility in my mind.
Posted Image
1984 244 GLT - blue rat rod (SOLD!)
1995 850 turbo - Turbonetics CBB T3/T04E, M56H, KW V2, VEMS Standalone, not as shitty as it looks! (I sell to you for good price?)

"Fish, I love you and respect you very much. But I will kill you dead before this day ends." -Santiago

#58 Guest_300+_T5R_855_*

  • Guests

Posted 01 December 2008 - 05:23 AM

Really Eric, totally agree.

The ignition is way too advanced and the AFR's are dangerously lean. I am actually surprised you didn't break it.

#59 JCviggen

    Level 3 Member

  • Supporting Member
  • 2,723 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Crew:___

Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE (laird @ Nov 30 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
JC(?), I still don't under stand how a given volume of air can have a different volume of Oxygen unless you change the density of that volume. Is this what I am missing?


Pretty much. Colder air is "heavier" because the molecules are more densely packed. More mass per volume. Volume is meaningless in this case really. You can have volume that is vacuum, that's not going to have much oxygen in it for combustion smile.gif
854 T-5R...will be back soon.
Posted Image
All my vids on YouTube
546bhp RS6 V8 DD

#60 TorqueSteer

    Pretty Boy Racing

  • Supporting Member
  • 4,231 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Florida
  • Crew:___

Posted 01 December 2008 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE (EricF @ Dec 1 2008, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also for those of you comparing much larger turbos should not neglect the difference in turbine size.. The TD04HL hot side I would say is a pretty large difference from conical to angle-outlet housing, and beyond that our larger GT-series turbines as well as a typical Stage 3 T3 turbine or even a TD05 would move your mid-high RPM volumetric efficiency up quite a bit. Then you're moving more volume at the same boost levels as you would be on the smaller turbos, in addition to probably moving up to much denser air thanks to the corresponding larger compressor.


Thanks, Eric, thats the I point I was trying to make earlier in the thread, which alone proves the original statement, "no matter the size of the turbo, the same level of boost will provide the same level of power all other things being equal." incorrect.

1995 850 Turbo | Hahn Racecraft Td05-Super 16g Turbo | 3" turboback exhaust | Water/ Methanol Injection | Custom FMIC | NA Cams | HKS SSQV BOV | Civinco Piggyback EMS | Walbro 255 LPH Fuel Pump | Innovate LM-1 A/F Meter | Koni Coilovers | QBM Endlinks | IPD Sway Bars | Profec B EBC | Bi-xenon Projector Retrofit | Matte Red Paint Finish.

...Sold for something American and RWD.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users



IPD
Copyright 2012 Volvospeed