89 replies to this topic

[Spanky]

[brick-a-brac]

ryan850-t5, on 11 November 2009 - 09:28 PM, said:

Would you rather have the gov't decide ''life or death'' situations?

With a public option there is no incentive to be efficient or make strides to make things better. If you have a constant cash flow what is the point in trying to create more revenue stream? The point of the business to make money is taken out of the equation...

The whole debate is over what the standard level of health should be. You can think of it like a graph of all the different health level from healthy to almost death. Where should that line be drawn in terms of the standard of health that should be given to people?

I agree that the basic health needs of people should be taken care of because of the prosperity we have in our country but beyond that you should have to pay for healthcare.

Healthcare is not a 'right' its a privilege.

Ah, the old "right versus privilege" argument.

It sounds as though many of you would rather have a private insurance company decide just how much health you are "privileged" to enjoy? Very interesting. Perhaps we should allow the privatization of FEMA, so that when the next huge disaster hits and your home is leveled, someone whose company's profits depend on NOT paying out claims can tell you how much rebuilding you are privileged to receive.

Here in the U.S., we will fight to the death for the "right" to own guns, but apparently we insist that being healthy enough to fire them is a privilege.

[7 VII 7]

Hollywood sucks

[Pops Racer]

Then lets get down to fines for overweight folks, smokers, drinkers, etc.

I can get into a ton of shity what would be happening if govt didn't steal so much in taxes.

Lets start with the extra cash I would have on hand to donate to private organizations that could provide help to those less fortunate, cuz God knows the Fed is great at that. Or that only one of us would have to work and thus strangers would not have to daycare my kids. And they'd be better citizens, causing less social havoc, requiring fewer cops and judges and prosecutors, thus lessening the Fed budget even more. FEMA? You still send your mail USPS, and they are $1 billion in the red from last year alone.

LBJ and his war on poverty was a joke. It killed the African-American family structure and made a whole segment of the population slaves to govt handouts.

Shall I go on? I got a whole big brain full of shit you never thought of. Stop taxing business to death to cover 70 yrs of failed social programs, so they could provide decent care as a perk. Let insurance companies compete across state lines, lowering prices. Get some goddam tort reform going so unnecessary procedures arn't prescribed to cover a Dr's ass. And the patient gets a ton of cash from that litigation, cuz lawyers work cheap.

Want some more? How about Social Security? I would be a rich motherfucker if I had taken all my SS taxes and invested them myself, even with the last years "crisis". No need to put me in a home or make decision on whether I get treatment or not, cuz I'd pay for what ever I wanted myself. And I'd retire earlier, creating a job slot for some up and coming youngster with a family.

I'm just getting started, so pull my finger if you want more.

Damn right Hollywood sucks.

SHWING!!

[brick-a-brac]

WINGNUT, on 03 December 2009 - 11:27 PM, said:

Then lets get down to fines for overweight folks, smokers, drinkers, etc.

I can get into a ton of shity what would be happening if govt didn't steal so much in taxes.

Lets start with the extra cash I would have on hand to donate to private organizations that could provide help to those less fortunate, cuz God knows the Fed is great at that. Or that only one of us would have to work and thus strangers would not have to daycare my kids. And they'd be better citizens, causing less social havoc, requiring fewer cops and judges and prosecutors, thus lessening the Fed budget even more. FEMA? You still send your mail USPS, and they are $1 billion in the red from last year alone.

LBJ and his war on poverty was a joke. It killed the African-American family structure and made a whole segment of the population slaves to govt handouts.

Shall I go on? I got a whole big brain full of shit you never thought of. Stop taxing business to death to cover 70 yrs of failed social programs, so they could provide decent care as a perk. Let insurance companies compete across state lines, lowering prices. Get some goddam tort reform going so unnecessary procedures arn't prescribed to cover a Dr's ass. And the patient gets a ton of cash from that litigation, cuz lawyers work cheap.

Want some more? How about Social Security? I would be a rich motherfucker if I had taken all my SS taxes and invested them myself, even with the last years "crisis". No need to put me in a home or make decision on whether I get treatment or not, cuz I'd pay for what ever I wanted myself. And I'd retire earlier, creating a job slot for some up and coming youngster with a family.

I'm just getting started, so pull my finger if you want more.

Damn right Hollywood sucks.

SHWING!!

Have you ever been told by an insurance company that you wouldn't be covered for a pre-existing condition? I have. Do you know what it is to live in a place where health care is provided to all citizens? I do.

Perhaps if everyone ate healthy foods, didn't smoke, worked less and therefore did not live in a constant state of stress and sleep deprivation, we would all be sharp, self-sufficient types who invest their money intelligently and can live a life that is not dependent on the notion that government is the last resort for everything. Of course, banks and investment firms would also regulate themselves, manufacturers and heavy industries would not pollute, no company would send jobs to third world countries in order to maximize profits, and we would all gather together and sing "Kumbaya".

[Smithwicks]

brick-a-brac, on 03 December 2009 - 04:23 AM, said:

Ah, the old "right versus privilege" argument.

It sounds as though many of you would rather have a private insurance company decide just how much health you are "privileged" to enjoy? Very interesting. Perhaps we should allow the privatization of FEMA, so that when the next huge disaster hits and your home is leveled, someone whose company's profits depend on NOT paying out claims can tell you how much rebuilding you are privileged to receive.

Here in the U.S., we will fight to the death for the "right" to own guns, but apparently we insist that being healthy enough to fire them is a privilege.

Yes you have the right to own a gun...but the government doesnt give you the gun for free or at a cost thats a fraction of what it should be.

Instead you have to work, make some money and then if you want to you have the right to purchase a gun, if you meet X criteria. To actually own a gun is a privilege.


Now should Americans have access to 'affordable' healthcare...yes. Like Wingnut said, allowing competition across state lines would lower costs. If the costs are lower then more people will be able to have access to health care. The health care industry seems to be the one industry where technology hasn't succeeded lowered the costs of its products.

[mrtl321]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded[/url]

[Chilled Man]

It comes down the simple fact of why should I have to pay for something for someone else if they are not willing to work for it .

Damn Commys

[Pops Racer]

Chilled Man, on 04 December 2009 - 02:59 AM, said:

It comes down the simple fact of why should I have to pay for something for someone else if they are not willing to work for it .

Damn Commys

Thats the crux of the biscuit. Who gets to say who and how much has to pay?

[7 VII 7]

WINGNUT, on 04 December 2009 - 04:03 PM, said:

Thats the crux of the biscuit. Who gets to say who and how much has to pay?

and who will help me and when

[Pops Racer]

brick-a-brac, on 04 December 2009 - 02:39 AM, said:

Have you ever been told by an insurance company that you wouldn't be covered for a pre-existing condition? I have. Do you know what it is to live in a place where health care is provided to all citizens? I do.

Perhaps if everyone ate healthy foods, didn't smoke, worked less and therefore did not live in a constant state of stress and sleep deprivation, we would all be sharp, self-sufficient types who invest their money intelligently and can live a life that is not dependent on the notion that government is the last resort for everything. Of course, banks and investment firms would also regulate themselves, manufacturers and heavy industries would not pollute, no company would send jobs to third world countries in order to maximize profits, and we would all gather together and sing "Kumbaya".

No and no. What was the tax rate in that country? How many people were unemployed? I never said it should a lawless unregulated society. I said that if the Govt got the fuck outta the way, folks would be more self sufficient, resourceful, and compassionate. ANd then we would need less govt. Have you read the intentions of the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers or the Constitution? You can keep relying on DC, if you wish, and you will be in the fail boat.

Here's my test for you pally, name one Govt program that has done what they said it would do, didn't exceed cost estimates, died a timely death, or created an impenetrable bureaucracy that wasn't cloaked in BS and red tape? Just one.

[7 VII 7]

WINGNUT, on 04 December 2009 - 04:27 PM, said:

No and no. What was the tax rate in that country? How many people were unemployed? I never said it should a lawless unregulated society. I said that if the Govt got the fuck outta the way, folks would be more self sufficient, resourceful, and compassionate. ANd then we would need less govt. Have you read the intentions of the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers or the Constitution? You can keep relying on DC, if you wish, and you will be in the fail boat.

Here's my test for you pally, name one Govt program that has done what they said it would do, didn't exceed cost estimates, died a timely death, or created an impenetrable bureaucracy that wasn't cloaked in BS and red tape? Just one.

Acorn

[Pops Racer]

7 VII 7, on 04 December 2009 - 04:20 PM, said:

and who will help me and when

I don't want any help. I can do what they can do for myself, only cheaper and more efficiently. Just let me keep my money, I earned, with hard work, education, and ingenuity.

They can't even deliver the mail.

7 VII 7, on 04 December 2009 - 04:31 PM, said:

Acorn

You fail Dave. That is the most corrupt of the corrupt. Your joking, I know, cuz I'm real smart.

[7 VII 7]

it was a joke

[cbon]

Smithwicks, on 04 December 2009 - 02:56 AM, said:

Yes you have the right to own a gun...but the government doesnt give you the gun for free or at a cost thats a fraction of what it should be.

Instead you have to work, make some money and then if you want to you have the right to purchase a gun, if you meet X criteria. To actually own a gun is a privilege.


The health care industry seems to be the one industry where technology hasn't succeeded lowered the costs of its products.

1) para.1 you wrote "...you have the right to own a gun..."; para.2 you wrote "...To actually own a gun is a privilege."
Which do you believe it to be, a right or a privilege?
I'll help you out with a little hint: Have you ever heard or read the phrase "the right to keep and bear arms"? Where does that phrase come from?

2)What if I'm unemployed/not working, but someone gives me some money, say an inheritance, or I win the lottery? Are you saying that then I don't have the right to buy a gun?
And what do you mean by "X criteria"?

3)your para.3: Surely you can think of more "industries" that that would be true for.

4)I'll take the cost/benefit ratio of our current health care over the cost/benefit ratio any federal government social program.

[Smithwicks]

cbon, on 04 December 2009 - 09:53 PM, said:

1) para.1 you wrote "...you have the right to own a gun..."; para.2 you wrote "...To actually own a gun is a privilege."
Which do you believe it to be, a right or a privilege?
I'll help you out with a little hint: Have you ever heard or read the phrase "the right to keep and bear arms"? Where does that phrase come from?

2)What if I'm unemployed/not working, but someone gives me some money, say an inheritance, or I win the lottery? Are you saying that then I don't have the right to buy a gun?
And what do you mean by "X criteria"?

3)your para.3: Surely you can think of more "industries" that that would be true for.

4)I'll take the cost/benefit ratio of our current health care over the cost/benefit ratio any federal government social program.

Okay then.

1)The right to bear arms comes from the second amendment to the constitution of the united states of america which is one of the amendments in the US Bill of Rights. Happy? And as for what I said, looking back at it, it does contradict itself.

2)I think your taking my example as being the one and only way you can buy a gun. Yes you can go out and buy a gun with an inheritance. I was taking a stab at relating the right in the 2nd Amendment to the 'right' to health care. By "x criteria" i mean background check, etc. And we're talking about health care not guns.

3)The energy industry could be another example. Im sure there are others.

[Pops Racer]

Cbon, smithywicks gets it.
Good to see you at least researched the 2nd.

Once again bric-a-brac like others has cherry picked one of my posts, ignoring most of the important points.

My biggest argument, and the one that gives me the morale high ground in this debate?

I'm not a socialist, nor do I wish to have a situation where money is taken and redistributed to those less fortunate than me, BY A BIG COERCIVE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO BUY VOTES FROM FOLKS THEY'VE MADE DEPENDENT ON THOSE SAME CASH SEIZURES! caps = yelling from my soap box.

See post #44 for how it works with private donations.

[brick-a-brac]

WINGNUT, on 03 December 2009 - 11:27 PM, said:

Then lets get down to fines for overweight folks, smokers, drinkers, etc.

I can get into a ton of shity what would be happening if govt didn't steal so much in taxes.

Lets start with the extra cash I would have on hand to donate to private organizations that could provide help to those less fortunate, cuz God knows the Fed is great at that. Or that only one of us would have to work and thus strangers would not have to daycare my kids. And they'd be better citizens, causing less social havoc, requiring fewer cops and judges and prosecutors, thus lessening the Fed budget even more. FEMA? You still send your mail USPS, and they are $1 billion in the red from last year alone.

LBJ and his war on poverty was a joke. It killed the African-American family structure and made a whole segment of the population slaves to govt handouts.

Shall I go on? I got a whole big brain full of shit you never thought of. Stop taxing business to death to cover 70 yrs of failed social programs, so they could provide decent care as a perk. Let insurance companies compete across state lines, lowering prices. Get some goddam tort reform going so unnecessary procedures arn't prescribed to cover a Dr's ass. And the patient gets a ton of cash from that litigation, cuz lawyers work cheap.

Want some more? How about Social Security? I would be a rich motherfucker if I had taken all my SS taxes and invested them myself, even with the last years "crisis". No need to put me in a home or make decision on whether I get treatment or not, cuz I'd pay for what ever I wanted myself. And I'd retire earlier, creating a job slot for some up and coming youngster with a family.

I'm just getting started, so pull my finger if you want more.

Damn right Hollywood sucks.

SHWING!!

WINGNUT, on 04 December 2009 - 10:37 PM, said:

Once again bric-a-brac like others has cherry picked one of my posts, ignoring most of the important points.

My biggest argument, and the one that gives me the morale high ground in this debate?

I'm not a socialist, nor do I wish to have a situation where money is taken and redistributed to those less fortunate than me, BY A BIG COERCIVE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO BUY VOTES FROM FOLKS THEY'VE MADE DEPENDENT ON THOSE SAME CASH SEIZURES! caps = yelling from my soap box.

See post #44 for how it works with private donations.

I just wanted to make sure everyone can reference the relevant post, as I'd hate to gain a reputation as a cherry-picker. For what it's worth, I am pretty far from being a socialist myself: government does not do things well, but I also believe there are things that cannot be left to laissez-faire free-market capitalism, either. Can you name a profitable transit system anywhere in the country? You reference the postal service: how would you run this to make it break even, let alone turn a profit? The U.K. tried this with Consignia about five years ago, and it was a colossal failure.

You asked me to <<name one Govt program that has done what they said it would do, didn't exceed cost estimates, died a timely death, or created an impenetrable bureaucracy that wasn't cloaked in BS and red tape? Just one.>> I will do this when you can tell me what private donation got the country out of the Depression.

[Pops Racer]

Jeez, let me see, none. Thats cuz FDR, managed to do exactly what we are doing now and stifled job growth in the private sector and starting the massive growth in Govt blocking out the sun. SS was initiated plus CCC, and TVA. Before that the Republicans were instrumental in starting the income tax, at 2%, take that now wouldn't ya? Instead of leaving the cash for the private sector (loans and other capital investment), he/they sucked it up into huge Govt social programs. Gold was taken out of coin and made illegal for private citizens to own. A chicken and two cars, if I recall. So 1929 to 1949 we were in the shit. We are getting 7 more years of this shit.

Not going to get into the cost of WWII, and conspiracy theories on the way we got involved.

Really, answering a question with a question?

I gotta get out more on Friday nights, but I come back for more!

I'm out, Pfunk on You tube.

[Pops Racer]

An dis is how we do it...

"Obamacare is modeled after a Massachusetts program requiring residents to buy health insurance. Last week, six community hospitals sued the state for failing to adequately reimburse them for care given to patients insured by the government. Payments were "so low they do not cover the cost of medical care," reported The Boston Globe. The hospitals have eaten more than $100 million in expenses since 2006, resulting in "hundreds of layoffs and millions of dollars in cost cuts." The Massachusetts model, then, was many times more expensive than projected, significantly worsened the state's budget crisis, shortchanged hospitals and doctors, reduced the availability and raised the cost of care, and increased unemployment. Now President Obama and congressional Democrats want to inflict this on the rest of America. No thanks."

Rocking govt run programs allll over!