Bay13 Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 This word is thrown around the forums a lot, especially in the performance section. But what is a tuner? Many come to the forums with knowledge from other car lines and carry that information in the back of their minds. I remember watching a guy take out his ECU, open a plastic tube that had 4-5 chips in it, he would select the chip he wanted, plug it into the socket in his ECU and then off he went with what he wanted the car to do based on the chip he put in the car.That doesn't happen with the Volvo. Unless you get rid of the Volvo ECU or hook up a piggy back system that will over ride what the Volvo ECU wants to do, you as a driver have no direct control over your ECU programming.This post is to spark conversation and knowledge about known VOLVO experience with tuning. Which for the most part should show very limited knowledge out there, I believe, maybe this thread can change that. What most on the forums call a tuner is actually a middle man. By middle man I mean they do not have the equipment or the knowledge to change whats going on inside the ECU. Not trying to call anyone stupid here, but from what I've learned about the Volvo tuning process The person that has the ability and knowledge to go in and change the code is hidden behind the magic curtian. The tuners we know send it to OZ and the man behind the curtian makes changes. Those changes could be actual code changes to your ECU based on data sheets from dyno runs. However Sometimes I feel by the responces and dyno sheets I've seen posted on these forums the changes that are made are often along these lines. Your dyno sheets are looked at, they are normally Pig rich, so the tuner take a program or chip written for another set up (that is hopefully closer to your set up) that will lean things out. THat is put in your ECU and sent back to you. Then you try that program. While this process will get you closer to a good dyno run this is not what I would really call tuning. This swapping of ECU programs until you get the correct A/F ratios is what in the repair business we call "Easter egging" or "shotgunning parts" until the problem is fixed.Any middle men, or actual tuners please add to or correct my concepts or Ideas. Please dont' respond with "well on the Honda, or SPX etc. You know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB @ VMS Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Basicly i would be a middle man for Rica. I have experiance tuning me7 cars because i have had so many errors and things i had to correct that i learn what the car likes and what it doesnt like and there are still things that stump me. Basicly like you said there is no way for 95% of customers to tune there car via a laptop. Tuning has to be done by the programmers who have the software and hardware to change the mapping. The baiscs of tuning start with the fueling of the car and the boost pressure that is going to be run. Since most customers cant or dont provide us tuners with enough information its very hard to hit things right on the first remaps its kinda trial and error. Most people dyno there car and get a air/fuel chart and send it to the tuners and think everything is going to come back perfect. This is untrue no matter what tuner it is and its not them being bad or unable to tune the car its the lack of info they have. When i told Upsolute to tune my Auto C70 i gave them all the info i had and told them what I wanted changed. The first remaps were to get the boost stable. Once 1.35Bar was correct it because a fueling issue and starting to fine tune the fuel charts. After this what a timing change and just trying so new things. Basicly you need to plot IAT,Maf,Fueling,Timing, and understand what is causing these values to read what they are. So baiscly what i do is take peoples info and help direct them into the right direction and explain why some thins have to be done the way they are. I need all the data info to really start putting things together then i go to Rica and explain to them what i would like done. Then i get a new prom for my customer and install it or have it sent to them. Remapping this way does take along longer and is harder to hit it right on the spot but at the moment most have no other way of doing it. Rica has a emulator that they use to tune with that is not avalible to everyone here in the us. I am working with Rica to get some more usefull tools that will aid us in tuning. The problem is custom mapping cannot be done here and that i have no way to burn a new map to a chip much less be able to change the values. I think that we are going to be making progess in the future and that things will only get better because. Afterall we are tuning a volvo and no one has been willing to put the money into the R&D for a external programming device that would enable you to change values inside the ecu. Also there isnt a big enough market to get something like that going unless a small group of people can spend big money. I do beleive that good tuning is possible doing it the way we do now its just like a i said, we need more info from the custom to let us know how the car is acting and how the new maps effect the car. Im glad this thread was made and i hope that people will learn alot from this thread. I have more to say but i wana wait and see what is said and hopefull we can all learn a bit from each other and make progess in tuning our loved Volvos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 I'm hoping to make at least fuel tuning by the user available to the average Joe on these cars...It will be a couple weeks now before I get to do it, but I have all the wiring figured out and planned out that I need in order to get Megasquirt controlling fuel on these cars. It's really very simple, just power, grounds, injector leads, and all the sensors.I'm not sure how it will work with the Motronic spark maps, but it's really going to be a step in the right direction for those who want to be more involved with the actual tuning. Depending on how the wiring ends up being (and how my time schedule is this next semester), I may even start selling a wiring and sensors kit for these cars that will allow people to just plug this stuff in without any trouble I think Megasquirt is the future of tuning these cars though, and Kenny H. will probably be helping me to get the spark side of things working on one in the next year or two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Rich -I think you're using the term "tuner" too loosely. What you are referring to is ECU tuning, which is a subset of engine tuning. Engine tuning is just one part of "tuning" a car - any car not just a Volvo. You also have chassis tuning, brake tuning, suspension tuning, chassis tuning, aerodynamic tuning, etc.I believe in following the Japanese method of tuning. They believe in improving every part of a car as to not upset the balance and driving experience. For example, tripling a car's horsepower without changing anything else is fun and all, but will upset the balance of a car. Likewise, putting the do all to end all suspesion setup without changing anything else is great, but by itself is not very useful. Their philosophy is to 'tune' the car as a whole, but do not overpower anything with anything else. Upgrade the brakes, but only enough to complement the power increase you have. Upgrade the suspension, but only to provide what you need and make sure it's capabilities are matched with the braking and engine power. What you are doing is creating a balanced car, that will ultimately be very fun to drive. It will be like the car you started with, but on steriods. It will still have the "soul" of the original car. Cramming a V8 into a Miata is peachy, but it's not a Miata anymore.You are talking specifically of Volvo ECU tuning. That is not a "tuner" by some definitions.I consider myself an ECU "tuner", but I do not do any ECU tuning on Volvos (yet). I have done plenty of ECU tuning on many other cars though - I own a EEPROM programer, and I have a stack of various PROM chips for other cars. But according to your definition I am not a "tuner" because I do not tune Volvo ECUs.The problem with ECU tuning on a Volvo is that there are no public or end-user available tools for self-tuning using the STOCK Motronic ECU. There are a handful of for-profit companies that have developed engine tuning for Volvos, but they relinquish control of the variables and software changes to themselves (i.e. black box) or to their dealers only. This is why you only have a small number of Volvo ECU "tuners" - they are the dealers of the companies that have provided the software to modify the ECU code.I personally think it's only a matter if time when software will become freeley available to the end user, so that they can tun their own Volvo. Whether the software is free or not I don't know. I know for what people pay for chips, they would easily pay $500+ to be able to tune their own cars themselves. A chip burner can be had for as little as $30, with really nice hobby ones $70-$100. The chips are a few bucks each.Now, just because someone has the software and a burner doesn't instantly make them a "tuner". They are POTENTIAL tuner. What makes a tuner a tuner is someone that knows how to tune an ECU. Someone who knows where and what to change. I don't consider someone who bumps up the boost, highlights the whole map and richens it pig rich, and retards the whole timing map a few degrees for safety a "tuner". Anyone can do that. TRUE ECU tuning is an artform. And doing it without blowing the car up you are working on before it is tuned is a skill that takes a while to master.I am not sure why you asked the question or what benefit you get out of the answer, but I figured I would throw in my $0.02. I think you already know who is the handful of Volvo ECU tuners are by now...or at least those who have the potential to tune a Volvo ECU. Hopefully that will change and we will all have the potential to be Volvo ECU tuners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasso C70 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Nice novel boys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Aren't their user friendly EMS systems that are usable on Volvos? Pectel, GEMs, has to be more I can't think of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mesoam Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 I'm with slater and his book like post. When I think "tuning" i think on the lines of modding. Basically the same thing in my eyes. Different person gives different answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Well, Johann posted this in a thread quite some time ago, it is the only software that I have found that will read my .bin file from my ECU. I'm not sure of the hardware would work...http://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/default.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Well, Johann posted this in a thread quite some time ago, it is the only software that I have found that will read my .bin file from my ECU. I'm not sure of the hardware would work...http://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/default.asp←WinOLS is OK.It only does fuel and ignition maps, and resets the checksum once you change something. It is a far cry from unlocking the full potential of the Motronic ECU, and honestly I don't think it's very useful at all. For example, if you open a stock rom in WinOLS and want to "up" the boost, you have no way of doing so. But boy if you want to change the stock fuel and timing maps, wowzers go for it.If you had software that could manipulate the entire ECU, you would have access to everything - enabling/disabling sensors, changing rev limits, boost control, resizing injectors, etc.In fact, just like Hondata and the other freeware tools for the Honda OKI-based ECUs, once you understand the hardware, you can write a whole new ECU software that can do totally new features. That's how Hondata and the freeware clones like Uberata and CROME added A/C WOT cutout support, NOS control, adjustable shift lights using the CEL, full boost support, launch control, USB and serial datalogging, 2 and 3bar MAP support, etc. None of that was in the stock ECU software and was all added once the code was disassembled and studied. At that point the hardware is the only limit besides your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 WinOLS is OK.It only does fuel and ignition maps, and resets the checksum once you change something. It is a far cry from unlocking the full potential of the Motronic ECU, and honestly I don't think it's very useful at all. For example, if you open a stock rom in WinOLS and want to "up" the boost, you have no way of doing so. But boy if you want to change the stock fuel and timing maps, wowzers go for it.If you had software that could manipulate the entire ECU, you would have access to everything - enabling/disabling sensors, changing rev limits, boost control, resizing injectors, etc.In fact, just like Hondata and the other freeware tools for the Honda OKI-based ECUs, once you understand the hardware, you can write a whole new ECU software that can do totally new features. That's how Hondata and the freeware clones like Uberata and CROME added A/C WOT cutout support, NOS control, adjustable shift lights using the CEL, full boost support, launch control, USB and serial datalogging, 2 and 3bar MAP support, etc. None of that was in the stock ECU software and was all added once the code was disassembled and studied. At that point the hardware is the only limit besides your imagination.←We need to find someone with the ability to do this ....and all chip in to pay for it. Something like Hondata would be ultimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHEIII874T5M Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Mark, I agree, and would be willing to invest funds for a final product. Let's say 10 of us invest $200, would $2000 be enough to get this rolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Mark, I agree, and would be willing to invest funds for a final product. Let's say 10 of us invest $200, would $2000 be enough to get this rolling?←I'd be down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Mark, I agree, and would be willing to invest funds for a final product. Let's say 10 of us invest $200, would $2000 be enough to get this rolling?←Yep. That or we try and get more people for a Nira groupbuy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHEIII874T5M Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 yea, Mark, that's the ideal path, but If I recall Correctly that's $1000+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 link me to Nira, and GB :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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