21 replies to this topic

[Johann]

Anything shocking yet?

This because of a question on a Dutch forum. It appears France introduced E10 fuel while the regular fuel uses near 5% Ethanol max.

[Che'_Moderator]

It causes a lot of no starts here in FL. The ethanol is hydrophilic so in the humid summers it pulls a ton of water into the full. So storage life on petrol has gone from a few months to less than a month. You see a lot of guys here with weekend cars and no starts. Not the corrosive E15 ate my tank liner story you want I know but it is a PITA especially on lawn equipment and such

[ozzimark]

AFAIK, gasoline in most places here in the states has been E10 for some time. Aside from what Charles said about it absorbing water, it's basically a non-issue.

[rbodor3]

F E10

[Zappo]

ozzimark, on 08 July 2009 - 10:05 PM, said:

AFAIK, gasoline in most places here in the states has been E10 for some time. Aside from what Charles said about it absorbing water, it's basically a non-issue.

Exactly what I was going to post. I know we have had it here in Washington for years. It used to change between summer and winter, but now I think it is E10 all year long.

[ozzimark]

Zappo, on 08 July 2009 - 11:27 PM, said:

It used to change between summer and winter, but now I think it is E10 all year long.

Yeah, I believe ethanol doesn't evaporate as readily as gasoline, thus the switch back to pure gasoline in the winter?

I can't remember the last time I saw a pump that didn't say 10% Ethanol on it... granted, I've only been driving for 7 years, and didn't really pay attention to that stuff when I was younger

[Che'_Moderator]

We are about half and half here. I personally will not use e10. If the time comes I will have have it delivered. There is a terminal just 10 miles from here

[Spanky]

ozzimark, on 08 July 2009 - 11:36 PM, said:

Yeah, I believe ethanol doesn't evaporate as readily as gasoline, thus the switch back to pure gasoline in the winter?

I can't remember the last time I saw a pump that didn't say 10% Ethanol on it... granted, I've only been driving for 7 years, and didn't really pay attention to that stuff when I was younger

Gasoline is a mixture of molecules, so "pure" and gasoline are two words that are hard to use in the same sentence.
(BP and volatility are inversely proportionate)
Ethanol BP 173.1 F
Gasoline BP is between 100-400 F (depending on how its made and what molecules are present, molecular weight being a big factor)
Basically gasoline can easily be made in which its BP is a lot higher then Ethanol.
There is a index of boiling point elevations between solute and a solvent given in molal, but gasoline is a solution. Usually the addition of a electronegative atom (O in Ethanol) is a very strong bond which really increases a BP of a substance (Mainly polar solvents) but also can have a pronounced effect in hydrocarbons (that have aromaticity) which are primarily non polar molecules. You cant take two solvents and assume that 1+1= 2 in regards to BP or even octane ratings (which is basically just reactivity). Instead what you will find out is that 1+1= 3 or a infinite amount of numbers in regards to the proportions you use.

[ozzimark]

SPANKY, on 09 July 2009 - 03:23 AM, said:

gasoline is a solution

Well yeah, I use pure loosely, given additive packages and such, and the fact that the hydrocarbon chains vary greatly in length from really short (evaporates easily) to really long (doesn't evaporate easily). You could always use Isoheptane if you wanted purity though

[poondobber]

I have been using E10/15 in my truck for atleast 8 years and have had no issues. My volvo usually gets driven only on the weekends. Again, no issue. My lawnmowers sit over the winter (sometimes with no fuel additive) and fire right back up. The only problem that I have had is a reduction in gas mileage. I went from 25-28mpg in my truck to 22-23mpg.

There should be very little change in performance and in reality you should be able to tune for more horsepower with Ethanol blends than with straight gasoline. Even though Ethanol will disolve water it will never disolve enough to effect performance. You will have more problems with evaporation effection your cold starts than with water absorption.

Believe what you want though.

[TorqueSteer]

poondobber, on 09 July 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

I have been using E10/15 in my truck for atleast 8 years and have had no issues. My volvo usually gets driven only on the weekends. Again, no issue. My lawnmowers sit over the winter (sometimes with no fuel additive) and fire right back up. The only problem that I have had is a reduction in gas mileage. I went from 25-28mpg in my truck to 22-23mpg.

There should be very little change in performance and in reality you should be able to tune for more horsepower with Ethanol blends than with straight gasoline. Even though Ethanol will disolve water it will never disolve enough to effect performance. You will have more problems with evaporation effection your cold starts than with water absorption.

Believe what you want though.

Where do you live?

[Mossback]

We have been forced by legislation to E10 for about 2 years now. I used to get 100% petrol in Washington but it's really hard to find those stations now. Overall in the Volvo, I had an average MPG drop on the highway from 29 mpg to 27 mpg at a 70 mph average. (sorry my metric conversion computer is not working today)
Its most noticeable in my wife's Prius. That car went from 60 Mpg highway to 45 using the E-10. I had to take a road trip to Idaho and used e-10 out (300+ miles) and 100% petrol back.
Major difference in a small engine.

Freakin corn lobby

[poondobber]

Quote

Where do you live?

Currently live near Philly(3 years). Everything is E15 here. Before that I lived near Detroit (6 years). Almost everything was E15 there as well. Prior to that I was using real gas in VA/SC/and DE. Detroit was big on the E85. Working for Ford in Dearborn, MI I am sure I would have heard about issues with Ethanol, water, and cold starts.

[TorqueSteer]

poondobber, on 10 July 2009 - 12:32 PM, said:

Currently live near Philly(3 years). Everything is E15 here. Before that I lived near Detroit (6 years). Almost everything was E15 there as well. Prior to that I was using real gas in VA/SC/and DE. Detroit was big on the E85. Working for Ford in Dearborn, MI I am sure I would have heard about issues with Ethanol, water, and cold starts.

Chuck was referring to the no starts in Florida, where the humidity is 10x what it is in the northern states. I was washing my car at 7am with no sun and was dripping sweat because the air is so heavy with moisture down here.

[EricF]

Depends what it is being used in. In a Volvo with a plastic gas tank, it probably won't be too bad.

In a boat with a huge aluminum tank that isn't too full, it will not store for very long. Also eats at the rubber fuel lines on boats, there have been huge issues with this in Florida. In a Volvo, who cares. In a boat, get ethanol-friendly fuel lines and be careful about how much gas you keep in the tank and for how long.

[poondobber]

TorqueSteer, on 10 July 2009 - 02:29 PM, said:

Chuck was referring to the no starts in Florida, where the humidity is 10x what it is in the northern states. I was washing my car at 7am with no sun and was dripping sweat because the air is so heavy with moisture down here.

Doesnt mater. Gas is not stored in open tanks. It can only pull moisture in from whats in your gas tank which will be mostly gas fumes anyway. If there is no problems with E85 then there is no problems with E15 regardless of where you live. Brazil uses almost all E85. It pretty freaking hot there.

[EricF]

http://www2.tbo.com/...ine/news-metro/

Quote

By RUSSELL RAY | The Tampa Tribune

Published: April 28, 2009

Related Links

* Tips for boaters
* Ethanol producers group

Linda Mulder and her husband, Ronald, were boating on the Homosassa River recently when their boat started to sputter.

"We were having a hard time accelerating," Linda Mulder said.

After consulting a mechanic and examining the engine, the Palm Harbor couple discovered that the inner lining of their fuel line was falling apart. The line was clogged and the fuel filter was filled with pieces of the corroded hose.

"It wasn't letting the engine get the fuel," she said.

The Mulders claim they were victims of ethanol-blended gasoline, which is wreaking havoc for boat owners nationwide. Ethanol-blended fuel is now served at thousands of Florida gas stations and will be mandatory by the end of 2010 thanks to a new state law approved last year.

Kevin Campbell, owner of Outboard Motor Services in Tampa, said clogged fuel lines, crumbling gas tanks and malfunctions of all sorts have increased since the petroleum industry introduced E10, a blend of 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline, to Florida consumers a year and a half ago.

"Every day I have a new customer come in with the ethanol problem," Campbell said. "I've seen it so many times."

Ethanol is creating problems requiring thousands of dollars in repairs for boat owners who were caught off guard by the potential damage ethanol could do to boat engines, Campbell said. And their warranty, in many cases, won't cover damage caused by what manufacturers describe as contaminated fuel.

"If you have an ethanol problem and it eats up all your fuel lines, some of these manufacturers are voiding your warranty," Campbell said.

The situation has led several boat owners in Florida to sue the major oil companies.

But E10 works just fine in most boat engines – as long as they're used regularly.

The problem is that most boats sit for long periods of time without use. When ethanol-blended fuels sit in a gas tank for a long time, the ethanol begins to separate from the gasoline.

When engines consume pure ethanol, a highly corrosive solvent, the results can be disastrous. In addition to unraveling fuel lines, it can loosen sludge, varnish and dirt inside the gas tank, causing fuel lines and carburetors to clog.

Ethanol eats away at the fuel line, causing it to fail, like a collapsing tunnel, Campbell said.

"I have a few customers that have brand new engines and it's actually eaten up the fuel lines completely," he said.

Also, ethanol prefers water over gasoline. If water is in the boat's gas tank, the ethanol will separate from the gasoline and bond with the water.

That means boaters could end up pumping a mixture of ethanol and water into their engine. If that happens, the boat could stall.

Most experts say it takes between 60 to 90 days for ethanol to start separating from gasoline. But that's not always the case.

"I've seen it in 30 days," Campbell said.

Matt Hartwig, spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association, said the boating industry's claims about ethanol have been greatly exaggerated.

"Ethanol has become a convenient scapegoat for any issue relating to marine engines of late," Hartwig said. "The fact is that most boats on the water can handle ethanol blends, especially when marinas and owners take the proper precautions."

Most older boats are equipped with fiberglass gas tanks, which are susceptible to ethanol. It can eat away at the fiberglass resin, which can clog the fuel system.

"It will break down the fiberglass material and turn it into a gel and just dissolve the tank," Campbell said.

Those with older boats should consider replacing their fiberglass tank with aluminum or plastic. Replacement costs, however, could easily exceed $1,000.

At a minimal cost, boat owners can protect their engines by installing fuel lines that are more resistant to ethanol and using gasoline additives that help prevent the separation of ethanol and water from gasoline.

Cars and trucks are better equipped to handle ethanol. What's more, cars and trucks are used more frequently, which means the ethanol isn't given a chance to separate from the gasoline.

Boat owners, Campbell said, are blaming the federal government for increasing the use of ethanol in gasoline without warning the public of the potential impacts.

As boat owners pay for costly repairs caused by ethanol, the ethanol industry and its agricultural allies are trying to increase the use of ethanol in gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent. The nation's $40 billion boating industry is trying to block that effort.

"Any ethanol blend above 10 percent poses significant durability, performance and safety risks for boating consumers," said Mat Dunn, legislative director for the National Marine Manufacturers Association.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is expected to decide before year's end whether to grant the ethanol industry's request for higher ethanol blends.

Any blend above 10 percent would make boats, chainsaws and handheld trimmers run hotter and faster, Dunn said.

"You're talking about a huge number of products that could be impacted negatively by E15," he said. "Our major concern is that the federal government is going to make a hasty and ill-informed decision and bring all of those products out of compliance or cause performance problems."

The nation's boating industry accounts for 154,000 jobs, including 30,000 in Florida. Of the nation's 13 million registered boats, about 1 million are in the Sunshine State.

The ethanol industry, however, says ethanol is a cleaner-burning fuel that will reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil and lower greenhouse gas emissions. Increasing the use of this home-grown fuel would be good for the environment and the economy, the industry argues.

Under a new state law passed last year, all gasoline sold in Florida must contain 10 percent ethanol by the end of 2010.

[poondobber]

That sucks. Glad I dont own a boat.

is there no way to edit posts?

Anyway. My comments were not pertaining to boats as I dont own one and have no experience with them. Plus I thought this was a car forum

[EricF]

poondobber, on 10 July 2009 - 07:38 PM, said:

Plus I thought this was a car forum

Whether it's sitting in a boat for a couple months, or a car that is parked for a couple months, the fact remains that the ethanol seperates from the gasoline rather quickly... Leading to the possibility of running on straight ethanol in an engine designed to be run with straight gasoline.

May not be as big a problem in Brazil if the engines are optimized for E85.

Also, cars are boring. Boats are cool An engine is an engine, and a gas tank is a gas tank.. Even completely neglecting accumulation of moisture from condensation, the seperation issue is apples to apples.

[Johann]

So conclusion as long as you sell your boat you are fine?