33 replies to this topic

[Wagoneer855]

So I just went out and video tapped a few runs so that I could properly monitor my AFRs and timing while driving. My ECU is still pulling timing when first in boost, then probably after a full second brings it back. While the boost is being pulled, AFRs are low-mid 10s. Then when timing comes back the AFRs go up to mid to high 11s sometimes just over 12. The car just flies when the timing comes in, but why is it being pulled? My AFRs seem safe enough.

This is with whites, ST stage II ecu, running 15psi, 16T, LPT engine.

Still confused on why the ECU is pulling timing for at least a full second everytime I mash it. It feels like the afterburners kick in 1 or 2 seconds after I floor it. Fine if it was a saab, but it's a damn volvo.

Any ideas? I'm out of them again.

[turbotuner]

Are you sure it's pulling timing? If so, then it may be that it's just too far advanced.

If it's not pulling timing, then perhaps it's simply running so rich that it's bogging down.

[cheapwagon]

Is there a member out there that is not having trouble with a Stage II LPT ST tune?

[Wagoneer855]

KoolAidKid, on 01 October 2009 - 11:52 AM, said:

Is there a member out there that is not having trouble with a Stage II LPT ST tune?

The tune is a Speedtuning 17psi HPT tune. The stage II LPT tune wasn't aggressive enough for my setup.

[Wagoneer855]

turbotuner, on 01 October 2009 - 07:22 AM, said:

Are you sure it's pulling timing? If so, then it may be that it's just too far advanced.

If it's not pulling timing, then perhaps it's simply running so rich that it's bogging down.

Yes I'm sure it's pulling timing, I have live data on my OBDII scanner. It's pulling ALL timing, then giving it all back. It feels like a full second of boost lag... but boost is there.

It's not running overly rich. The richest I've seen is about 10.2 or 10.3.

[turbotuner]

Wagoneer855, on 01 October 2009 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yes I'm sure it's pulling timing, I have live data on my OBDII scanner. It's pulling ALL timing, then giving it all back. It feels like a full second of boost lag... but boost is there.

It's not running overly rich. The richest I've seen is about 10.2 or 10.3.

That is mega rich!!

If it's pulling all the timing, then it's most likely knocking. You will probably have to either (a) lower the boost or ( retard the ignition timing or © both!

Try reducing the boost to 0.9 - 1.0 bar and see what happens.

Wagoneer855, on 01 October 2009 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yes I'm sure it's pulling timing, I have live data on my OBDII scanner. It's pulling ALL timing, then giving it all back. It feels like a full second of boost lag... but boost is there.

It's not running overly rich. The richest I've seen is about 10.2 or 10.3.

That is mega rich!!

If it's pulling all the timing, then it's most likely knocking. You will probably have to either

(1) lower the boost

or

(2) retard the ignition timing

or

(3) both of the above!!

Try reducing the boost to 0.9 - 1.0 bar and see what happens.

[--Aaron--]

You could always see what the orange injectors do.

I wonder if the HPT tune is in fact too aggressive.......I would've stuck with the LPT tune, dyno and remap deal but that's me. As you know Oliver has some pretty well dialed in tunes for our LPTs.

[cheapwagon]

Wagoneer855, on 01 October 2009 - 12:07 PM, said:

The tune is a Speedtuning 17psi HPT tune. The stage II LPT tune wasn't aggressive enough for my setup.

sorry I just saw that other member with the 99 lpt and a ST tune having a lot of trouble.

He does have the same or similar tune as you.

His specs: 99 S70 glt. 16T, st 17psi, straight 2.5" exhaust, ipd intake, eibach, bilstein, 17" volans, turboxs bov, tint.
full stage 0 done!

[Wagoneer855]

--Aaron--, on 01 October 2009 - 01:04 PM, said:

You could always see what the orange injectors do.

the stock reds were even worse. They ran too lean in the upper end.

The ST LPT tune I ran before was even worse, it reacted horribly.

[--Aaron--]

Wagoneer855, on 01 October 2009 - 01:51 PM, said:

the stock reds were even worse. They ran too lean in the upper end.

The ST LPT tune I ran before was even worse, it reacted horribly.

Didn't you just have your gauges installed? How do you know for a fact that it was too lean?

I don't understand how your LPT tune and/or orange injectors could've been as bad as you describe.

It could be that I chose to be content for a while w/ 12 psi but then again maybe not.....who knows.

I did have weird issues w/ everything at first but after I got the tune settled in and things sittin' pretty it's been smooth sailing ever since, every time I decide to have a little fun.....except for my pesky downpipe coming loose here and there.

The car does not reek of fuel and is always refilled @ the 4 gallon mark, at which time I have 290 - 320 miles.

Again, I just don't understand how the LPT setup you had was as bad as you describe.

[EricF]

Is the tune actually for stock injectors? You will never get any satisfaction running larger injectors on an upgraded ECU unless it is specifically written for those injectors.

If it's too lean up top with the injectors it is meant for, then you will really just need a re-tune. Just have them add more fuel back in up top.


The bottom line is that you are getting detonation when boost comes in, the ECU pulls timing, and your AFRs are all wacky. The AFR readings could be related to the timing pull, but it is impossible to say until you eliminate the timing pull and you will do this by lowering the boost to get rid of the detonation that causes it.

So, lower the boost. See if your AFRs improve. My guess is they will be pig rich and the car will be a relative dog. But if you can maintain a decent timing curve with no timing pull it could be different.

You will need a re-tune, it sounds like. Take timing out in the midrange, add timing and fuel in the top end, and make sure you use the injectors the tune is calibrated for or you'll never get satisfaction out of the setup.


I will share a story. At one time, I thought in the way of "well this car is going to be too fast for these injectors, let me toss some bigger ones in" .. I bought Odell's old 850 19t manual car, put together by Bill at Adrenaline Racing. I was on the dyno the next day at a meet. The car had orange injectors, and I swapped to blues (350cc) before going on the dyno as a safety measure. Well, as soon as we got into boost at WOT the AFRs plummeted to the low 10s and then into the 9s. I put the oranges back in and it was mid 12s all the way across, picked up about 20 peak whp.

Moral of the story, use the injectors the tune was written for If AFRs are not satisfactory, get it re-tuned. The timing is obviously already in need of adjustment.

Get a dyno chart so they can see. If you can datalog ignition timing then that will be useful too. Actually if you can datalog boost/AFR/timing then they should be able to make adjustments based on that.

[Wagoneer855]

With the reds it was the opposite, not enough fuel up top, just right in the midrange. With the whites, it's perfect for top end, too rich in the midrange. Anything I can do to fix the timing?

I realize I'll need a custom tune, I wasn't hopng for it to be perfect. I just don't even trust it on a dyno right now.

And isn't the ST 17psi tune for whites?

[EricF]

Wagoneer855, on 01 October 2009 - 07:12 PM, said:

With the reds it was the opposite, not enough fuel up top, just right in the midrange. With the whites, it's perfect for top end, too rich in the midrange. Anything I can do to fix the timing?

I realize I'll need a custom tune, I wasn't hopng for it to be perfect. I just don't even trust it on a dyno right now.

And isn't the ST 17psi tune for whites?

I've never seen mention of needing injectors for it before?

I would give Speedtuning a call and describe your situation. You're using their product, it's obviously not working for your application, do they have any maps with less timing in the midrange and more fuel up top?

[turbotuner]

One thing you could try quite easily is to run less boost.

For example, try 0.7 bar. See what happens to the ignition timing and the AFR. Then you'll have a better idea as to what is going on.

[Wagoneer855]

I tried running 12psi, and the AFRs are constantly in the low 10s and the car is boggy as all hell.

There doesn't seem to be a happy medium. I'll contact Oliver and see if he can set up a custom tune if I get a dyno chart.

[turbotuner]

What was the timing at 12 psi?? Was it still pulling all timing?

[HayaCruza]

Wagoneer855,

That ran fine on my essentially stock HPT with orange injectors but I never put a wideband on it.
Honestly, I felt it was running a little rich and would have worked better with a high flow exhaust but that is the only complaint if you can call it that since I should've had a high flow exhaust for a Stage II anyway.

You want to sell it back since it looks like you need a different tune anyway?
Maybe Oliver has LPT specific tune....

[Wagoneer855]

I emailed Oliver for any information on the tune or for help he could give me.

I also talked to a pretty experienced tuning guru and he told me a few things it could be. He told me to get a compression test to see if one of my cylinders is low. He said that could cause problems and the ECU would pull timing because of it. He also said to get my injectors flow tested and fuel pressure tested to see if there any inconsistency in fuel flow.

He said after that go to a dyno and monitor every little thing you can to see what's happening when the problem occurs. He also said the timing curve is probably off due to the fact that this tune is for a 8.5:1 and not 9:1CR. The timing change that's needed for the higher compression might be outside of the safe range of the tune.

So... back to troubleshooting. It's never going to end with this car. I'll keep updating this thread just to help out the people running the 2.4 block. Tuning is still very gray in the area of this engine. Nobody has seemed to get it perfect yet (or the people that think they do don't have widebands or something to watch the timing with to prove it.

[randomdude]

what about TT's last question? did you monitor the timing as 12psi?

[Wagoneer855]

randomdude, on 02 October 2009 - 05:13 PM, said:

what about TT's last question? did you monitor the timing as 12psi?

Sorry, still pulls timing just less drastically. The bad thing at 12psi is that the car bogs really badly and AFRs are way down in the 10s.