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#1 gdizzle

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 01:44 PM

This should be on the front page of every newspaper.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/...85504-6384r.htm

QUOTE
Supporting the troops


By Thomas Sowell


During the recent election campaign, it has been a liberal mantra they "support the troops" while opposing the war in Iraq. Just what does supporting the troops mean — other than a throwaway line to escape the political consequences of a long history of being antimilitary?
    It certainly does not mean making the least effort to understand the pressures and dangers of combat, so as to avoid the obscenity of sitting in peace and comfort while leisurely second-guessing life-and-death decisions that had to be made in a split second by men 10,000 miles away. 
    The latest example is the now widely publicized shooting and killing by an American Marine in Iraq of a wounded terrorist in Fallujah. Chris Matthews on "Hardball" spoke of "what may be the illegal killing of a wounded, unarmed insurgent" — the politically correct media term for a terrorist — and asked: "Is there ever a justification for shooting an unarmed enemy?"
    The unreality of the question is breathtaking, both logically and historically. How can you know someone is unarmed, when finding out can cost you your life? A hand grenade is easily concealed and can kill you just as dead as if you were shot by a machine gun or hit by a nuclear missile.
    American troops in Iraq have already been killed by booby-trapped bodies. During World War II, wounded Japanese soldiers sometimes waited for an American medical corpsman to come over to help them and then exploded a hand grenade, killing them both.
    Assuming you are somehow certain an enemy is unarmed, perhaps because you already searched or disarmed him, is it ever justified to kill him anyway? That question was answered more than a half-century ago, when German troops wearing American uniforms and speaking English infiltrated American lines during the Battle of the Bulge. Those German troops, when captured, were lined up against a wall and shot dead. And nobody wrung his hands about it.
    The rules of war, the Geneva Convention, do not protect soldiers who are not wearing their own country's uniforms. To get be protected by the rules, you must play by the rules.
    Terrorists are not enemy soldiers covered by the rules of war. Nor should they be. They observe no rules.
    Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the United Nations can all talk about "the Geneva Convention." But that agreement on the rules of war has never applied to combatants not wearing the uniform of any country that is a party to the Geneva Convention.
    Terrorists wear no uniform and show no mercy, as they have repeatedly demonstrated by beheading innocent civilians, including women.
    Why any such terrorists should be captured alive in the first place is a real question. Maybe they have information that could be useful. But every terrorist our troops try to capture alive increases the risk of death for American combat troops. Their information better be damned important for that.
    It is more than enough to ask a man to put his life on the line for his country, without needlessly increasing those risks by trying to be nobler than thou or playing to the international gallery. The very fact this Marine in Fallujah has been taken out of combat and being investigated can only inhibit other troops.
    The inhibitions under which American troops have already had to fight have needlessly jeopardized their safety while we tiptoe around the delicate sensibilities of the media, European critics and "the Arab street."
    The Times of London refers to a Marine "killing an unarmed man in cold blood." If that was his purpose, he could have opened fire when he entered the room, instead of waiting until he saw an Iraqi terrorist pretending to be dead — for what purpose the Marine had no way of knowing.
    We cannot fight wars to please the Times of London or the other naysayers and nitpickers arrayed against us from the beginning. There is no point trying to appease people who will not be appeased. And to do so at an increased risk to American lives would be criminal.
   
    Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist.

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#2 BeachRat

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 05:43 PM

QUOTE(gdogg16 @ Dec 1 2004, 06:44 AM)
This should be on the front page of every newspaper.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/...85504-6384r.htm

QUOTE
Supporting the troops


    The latest example is the now widely publicized shooting and killing by an American Marine in Iraq of a wounded terrorist in Fallujah. Chris Matthews on "Hardball" spoke of "what may be the illegal killing of a wounded, unarmed insurgent" — the politically correct media term for a terrorist — and asked: "Is there ever a justification for shooting an unarmed enemy?"

View Post


This same Marine had a friend killed not a week earlier by another Iraqi pretending to be dead. I'd have put one right between their eyes, and not though anything about it. Non-supporters of the war can't be generalized into a group of "you murdered an unarmed man!" yuppies. I for one, know what kind of sacrifice those young men and women are making, a few of which are good friends of mine. That being said, I still question our motives for being there, but I shun those who sweep up the people in the war into that same category. They're not there by choice, they're there because they have a job to do.

#3 jross

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 06:43 PM

Does anyone else find it interesting that we label them terrorists for defending their homeland? I mean, are they doing anything we wouldn't in the same situation?

#4 theunderlord

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 10:43 AM)
Does anyone else find it interesting that we label them terrorists for defending their homeland? I mean, are they doing anything we wouldn't in the same situation?
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dammit john! why you gotta wax intellectual on us? tongue.gif damm good point tho. unsure.gif
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#5 Che'_Moderator

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE(BeachRat @ Dec 1 2004, 11:43 AM)
QUOTE(gdogg16 @ Dec 1 2004, 06:44 AM)
This should be on the front page of every newspaper.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/...85504-6384r.htm

QUOTE
Supporting the troops


    The latest example is the now widely publicized shooting and killing by an American Marine in Iraq of a wounded terrorist in Fallujah. Chris Matthews on "Hardball" spoke of "what may be the illegal killing of a wounded, unarmed insurgent" — the politically correct media term for a terrorist — and asked: "Is there ever a justification for shooting an unarmed enemy?"

View Post


This same Marine had a friend killed not a week earlier by another Iraqi pretending to be dead. I'd have put one right between their eyes, and not though anything about it.
View Post


Ahhh yes. And this is why there is a test even for groundpounders. You my friend in a modern military would be a cook in the mess.

#6 jross

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 03:46 AM

QUOTE('98S70R @ Dec 1 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 10:43 AM)
Does anyone else find it interesting that we label them terrorists for defending their homeland? I mean, are they doing anything we wouldn't in the same situation?
View Post

dammit john! why you gotta wax intellectual on us? tongue.gif damm good point tho. unsure.gif
View Post


It's okay, it's just been a pet peeve of mine, that we keep calling them "insurgents" and "terrorists". They're Iraqis, in poking Iraq, defending their home soil against what they see to be a bunch of foreign monkey.gifs who are trying to keep 'em down. They're not "insurgents", they're patriots. I mean, look at what are troops have done there -- we're not exactly angels (which is all I'm going to say about the idiocy of using trained soldiers as policemen).

[edit: I want to point out that I'm not justifying what some of the Iraqis are doing to us, just that I can hardly blame them for wanting us out. I suppose you could chalk alot of what's going on to some of them just being rather direct in expressing that.]

Edited by jross, 02 December 2004 - 03:50 AM.


#7 gdizzle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:06 AM

QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 09:46 PM)
QUOTE('98S70R @ Dec 1 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 10:43 AM)
Does anyone else find it interesting that we label them terrorists for defending their homeland? I mean, are they doing anything we wouldn't in the same situation?
View Post

dammit john! why you gotta wax intellectual on us? tongue.gif damm good point tho. unsure.gif
View Post


It's okay, it's just been a pet peeve of mine, that we keep calling them "insurgents" and "terrorists". They're Iraqis, in poking Iraq, defending their home soil against what they see to be a bunch of foreign monkey.gifs who are trying to keep 'em down. They're not "insurgents", they're patriots. I mean, look at what are troops have done there -- we're not exactly angels (which is all I'm going to say about the idiocy of using trained soldiers as policemen).

[edit: I want to point out that I'm not justifying what some of the Iraqis are doing to us, just that I can hardly blame them for wanting us out. I suppose you could chalk alot of what's going on to some of them just being rather direct in expressing that.]
View Post


They aren't patriots, they are the enemy.
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#8 InlineTurbo

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:38 AM

If they were 'patriots' they would wear their countries colors. If they don't they are considered terrorists (most likely) or spies (less likely) neither of which are covered under the Geneva Conventions. Also prove to me that these guys are Iraqis. There are tons of foreigners there fighting as well. Your analogy that they are defending their homeland is bougs. Iraq has a government and they are not part of it and therefor cannot represent their people. Using your analogy the Nazis were just defending their homelad too.

Calling these guys 'insurgents' or 'patriots' are just excuses for you to sleep better at night for supporting terrorists.

Oh, and here is a quote that I found on the subject that pretty much sums it up:
"The liberal punditocracy seems to think it's an obvious fact that the Geneva Convention should apply to the war on terrorism, even though the plain text of the Geneva Convention applies as much to the war on terror as it does to the battle between the Federation and the Klingon Empire."

Edited by InlineTurbo, 02 December 2004 - 04:40 AM.

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#9 jross

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 05:28 AM

Wow, crack pipes down people. I mean, seriously. Put down the drugs, step back, clear your mind for a second, and look at the situation, m'kay?
1) I never mentioned the Geneva Convention. Where the monkey did you pull that from, Inline?

2) We invaded a foreign country, commited atrocities on civilians, installed a government of our choice, and then are suprised when the citizens fight back, and because the government we appointed isn't taking part as well, we say they're "terrorists" or "insurgents". Yeeaaaa.. not so much.

You make it sound like I'm supporting the Iraqis in what they're doing. I'm not. However, I'm pointing out that they're doing the exact same thing I would do if I was in their situation. And, frankly, I would hope everyone here would respond the same. Open your eyes, and look past a propiganda campaign that would make Goebbels proud.

Greg -- They can be both. Those two aren't mutally exclusive. The British weren't exactly chummy with us in the revolutionary war.

Inline -- There's a huge difference between the Nazis and the Iraqis. Seriously, would you people quit saying everyone else is a Nazi? The Nazis commited genocide and invaded their neighbors. The Iraqis stopped doing that after the first Gulf War, and we removed Saddam so they wouldn't do it again.

Less knee-jerk, more thinking.

#10 theunderlord

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:40 PM

QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 09:28 PM)
Inline -- There's a huge difference between the Nazis and the Iraqis. Seriously, would you people quit saying everyone else is a Nazi? The Nazis commited genocide and invaded their neighbors. The Iraqis stopped doing that after the first Gulf War, and we removed Saddam so they wouldn't do it again.
View Post



*takes big hit on crack pipe, waits for pain from burned fingers to stop before typing * -

John, c'mon... once you start a genocide against people who live in your own country, the Nazi stigma tends to stick to you. smile.gif
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#11 gdizzle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE(jross @ Dec 1 2004, 11:28 PM)
Wow, crack pipes down people. I mean, seriously. Put down the drugs, step back, clear your mind for a second, and look at the situation, m'kay?
1) I never mentioned the Geneva Convention. Where the monkey did you pull that from, Inline?

2) We invaded a foreign country, commited atrocities on civilians, installed a government of our choice, and then are suprised when the citizens fight back, and because the government we appointed isn't taking part as well, we say they're "terrorists" or "insurgents". Yeeaaaa.. not so much.

You make it sound like I'm supporting the Iraqis in what they're doing. I'm not. However, I'm pointing out that they're doing the exact same thing I would do if I was in their situation. And, frankly, I would hope everyone here would respond the same. Open your eyes, and look past a propiganda campaign that would make Goebbels proud.

Greg -- They can be both. Those two aren't mutally exclusive. The British weren't exactly chummy with us in the revolutionary war.

Inline -- There's a huge difference between the Nazis and the Iraqis. Seriously, would you people quit saying everyone else is a Nazi? The Nazis commited genocide and invaded their neighbors. The Iraqis stopped doing that after the first Gulf War, and we removed Saddam so they wouldn't do it again.

Less knee-jerk, more thinking.
View Post

Well, Inline brings up a good point that most fighting aren't even Iraqi's, they are infact insurgents. The similarties between Hitler and Saddam are at times, uncany. So I see nothing wrong with the comparison.
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#12 wattsat

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE
If they were 'patriots' they would wear their countries colors.


How many of our Minute Men during the Revolutionary war wore the colors and uniform of our birthing nation?

How many of them would have actually worn a uniform if provided with one? I dare say that many of our nations founders were in it forthemselves more than they were for a country. They just wanted an end to British Rule. Same as these people. If given a uniform I doubt they would wear it. They are fighting for the Expulsion of an invador not necessarily for their country.

You also call them insergants. What did you call the French? I think at that time we called them allies and the British were enraged by their assistance. If it were not for France we would not be an independant country today.

Honestly, I am a very very liberal person with some significant conservative views.

I don't think that Marine should face any punishment. His only mistake was being filmed killing him. I do not know if he was justified in killing that person but I certainly would not hold him accountable for it. It is a war and bad things happen in a war. Get over it.

Also, as a direct result of my Mother (who like me is firmly against the war in Iraq and basically all of GW's policies) recently pushed funds through from a private foundation to purchase Hundreds of high power scopes for military rifles for the Marine Corps to outfit the troops in Iraq. Materials required but not provided by the conservative Republicans pushing this war.

So when us Liberals say "Support our troops but not this war". We mean it!

#13 mmetz

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 06:59 PM

First off... that was an excellent article.

Now then, I'm having difficulty comprehending how anyone can consider someone who kills their own people, opposes the rebuilding of their own country, and supports or participates in terrorist atrocities a patriot? Are you kidding? Seriously, you guys are joking right?

The true Iraqi patriots are those who are actually defending their young democracy - not trying to destroy it.

Those whom you ignorantly and blindly crown patriots daily attempt to bring their own country to its knees in their blind rage and hatred. They are not fighting to defend their country - they are fighting to destroy any ideals that do not align with there own [wonder why so many from other countries are "defending" Iraqi - wow, do they have you fooled!].

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding some of you. I guess it's possible that your liberal hitler dictionaries define "patriot" as "beheader of the innocent".

Oh and Wattsat, since Republicans are no longer the sole providers of military equiment, I want to personally give you and your mom my "I Deserve a Golden Cookie" award. Need I remind you that it was those of the democratic persuasion who opposed fully funding the troops to begin with.
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#14 mmetz

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 07:10 PM

to put a more accurate light on the comparison of the war in Iraq and the Revolutionary War...

The US today is like the French then.
Iraqi soldiers [those fighting for democracy] are like the Minute Men
The insurgents / terrorist are like Benedict Arnold [traitors].
Sadam's regime is like the British.
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#15 gdizzle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE(wattsat @ Dec 2 2004, 12:00 PM)
QUOTE
If they were 'patriots' they would wear their countries colors.


How many of our Minute Men during the Revolutionary war wore the colors and uniform of our birthing nation?

How many of them would have actually worn a uniform if provided with one? I dare say that many of our nations founders were in it forthemselves more than they were for a country. They just wanted an end to British Rule. Same as these people. If given a uniform I doubt they would wear it. They are fighting for the Expulsion of an invador not necessarily for their country.


You also call them insergants. What did you call the French? I think at that time we called them allies and the British were enraged by their assistance. If it were not for France we would not be an independant country today.

Honestly, I am a very very liberal person with some significant conservative views.

I don't think that Marine should face any punishment. His only mistake was being filmed killing him. I do not know if he was justified in killing that person but I certainly would not hold him accountable for it. It is a war and bad things happen in a war. Get over it.

Also, as a direct result of my Mother (who like me is firmly against the war in Iraq and basically all of GW's policies) recently pushed funds through from a private foundation to purchase Hundreds of high power scopes for military rifles for the Marine Corps to outfit the troops in Iraq. Materials required but not provided by the conservative Republicans pushing this war.

So when us Liberals say "Support our troops but not this war". We mean it!
View Post

We were talking about the rules of engagement under the Geneva Convention. Last I checked the GC didn't exist during the Revolutionary War! laugh.gif rolleyes.gif

Edited by gdogg16, 02 December 2004 - 07:45 PM.

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#16 Che'_Moderator

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 08:20 PM

Everyone take one giant step outside the box. There are so many whack comments here. Uniforms are what make the soldier? Wow, so Delta, CIA, NSA, and a lot of SOCOM units are not soldiers? Holy crap... we are terrorists. They are not defending democracy? That makes them terrorists? Hummm, and we thought McCarthyism was dead. They don't fight for the government that is in power so their terrorists? That describes us a little over 270 years ago. Ahh!!!! Again were terrorists. Sorry Che, you were a terrorist to. Genocide on your own people makes you a terrorist Nazi? Wow Africa, and Asian country and all Nazis then. Again guys come on. You are supposed to be the more educated people of the world. You drive luxury cars, you surf the internet. Stop being so pre-conventional. A lot of you have great thoughts, so do not let them be overshadowed by black and white though processes. BTW, Eat more cheese.

#17 wattsat

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE
it has been a liberal mantra they "support the troops" while opposing the war in Iraq. Just what does supporting the troops mean — other than a throwaway line to escape the political consequences of a long history of being antimilitary?


mmetz, This is what I was referring to. He is saying that people use the term Support the Troops but Oppose the war means you are antimilitary. It was a line used allot by Democrats to support their position. It is one I certainly aggree with but I am nor anyone in my family antimilitary. My comment was to illistrate that even though we are against the war we are for helping our soldiers to survive awar we do not agree with. If that means we should have a
QUOTE
Golden Cookie
then so be it.

QUOTE
they are fighting to destroy any ideals that do not align with there own


How much more patriotic do you want them to be. That is exactly what being patriotic is. Fighting to the Death to defend your ideals. Just because their ideals do not align with yours means we should call them un-patriotic.

I do not agree with what they are doing, how they are doing it or even why they are doing it. I don't want them to kill any of our troops, citizens, allies etc. But I do believe they have a right to do what they are doing. From their point of view we are invaders. They are right, we did not liberate a people, we invaded a country. I understand completely why you do not see it that way.

Put yourself in their shoes.

They have hard core religious beliefs.
Another country that shares none of your religious or moral beliefs attacks and overthrows your government.
You have no money or way to earn a living.
Your home has been destroyed.
Your family is mostly if not all dead or living very poorly as a result of the invasion.
Your new political leaders were selected by the invading country.
What do you do?
If that were me, I would fight and kill and do everything I could to force those people to leave.

How about this. Go rent the Movie Red Dawn. And see if there is any difference.

#18 theunderlord

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE(wattsat @ Dec 2 2004, 01:50 PM)
How about this.  Go rent the Movie Red Dawn.  And see if there is any difference.
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pA+r!k SVVayz3y pn3Zs!

Edited by '98S70R, 02 December 2004 - 10:14 PM.

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#19 InlineTurbo

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 12:16 AM

Unconventional warfar units like Delta, Seals, ECT. are a bit different. They are organized and do wear uniforms, some times anyway, depending on the mission at hand. Basically though if you are caught on the battlefield with a weapon in your hand and no uniform you are screwed. Better hope your comm gear works so you don't get plugged. Though even that isn't a guarantee which is why we have IFF equipment. Not wearing a uniform doesn't make you a terrorist. Acting like a terrorist does. Not wearing a uniform on the battlefield just makes things like the GC very tricky for you. I should have made that point more clear. I'm a big fan of unconventional warfare, but calling the guys in fallujah 'freedom fighters' is a huge stretch.

This comparison to our minute men and the terrorists in Falluja just makes me want to vomit. We fought against foreigners trying to opress us. Iraq has a government that speaks for the people and they are on our side. The U.S. is not and opressor, and hopefully never will be. They were given the chance to negotiate and refused. This is a very important point. They had all kinds of options because we are giving them every chance possible to get out of this peacefully, they refused. Their own country doesn't even support them and is on our side fighting against them. I wonder why? Maybe because they were the ones doing the opressing? If they wanted to oppose us and the rest of their country correctly they would have negotiated a cease fire and put up a candidate for president.

The minutmen never cut off peoples heads while wearing black masks and showed it on TV. The minute men didn't disembowl aid workers from their own country. I understand that TV wasn't around then, but you get the point. The minutemen didn't have torture rooms for their own citizens. The minute men didn't fill mass graves with their own people. The minutment fought for freedom. These guys were given a chance for freedom and turned it down.

The nazi comparisson is valid. They killed their own people and invaded other countries without provocation. Actually a more apt comparisson would be the werewolves.

Edited by InlineTurbo, 03 December 2004 - 12:21 AM.

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#20 jross

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 01:38 AM

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the Nazis followed Hitler willingly; the Iraqis didn't voluntarily participate in Saddam's actions (except his Republican Guard troops and secret police). You're mixing apples and oranges. I'm not even touching the rest of your stuff with a 10 foot pole.




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