55 replies to this topic

[Pops Racer]

16,000 new IRS agents will be hired to enforce this legislation.

Thats enough of a reason for me to kill it.

Even you deep Socialists gotta agree that a Federal Police force used to enforce health care purchases and fines is just fucked up!!

NO tort reform, NO competitiveness across state lines, Obama says this is just the incremental beginning of a single payer system.

It is un-Constitutional to force a citizen to purchase anything. Fuck the collective, leave me alone. I have confidence in my ability to make my way in this life.


This is just the beginning of more Pelosi grinning, her ear-to-ear plastic and $1000 Dior suits be damned.

Sign the Petition!!!

Edited by WINGNUT, 19 March 2010 - 09:46 PM.

[adamjjohn203]

It going to pass on Sunday!!! Wooohoooo!!! This is for the people, this is to preserve life!

Edited by adamjjohn203, 19 March 2010 - 09:48 PM.

[flyfishing3]

everybody that signs that are the first to get audited by the new 16,000

[Chilled Man]

adamjjohn203, on 19 March 2010 - 09:47 PM, said:

It going to pass on Sunday!!! Wooohoooo!!! This is for the people, this is to preserve life!

LMAO your insane wingnut is right more bullshit for free loading illegals to get .

or for low income lazy assholes to get for people who actually work for there money .

[Prezman26]

Chilled Man, on 19 March 2010 - 11:53 PM, said:

LMAO your insane wingnut is right more bullshit for free loading illegals to get .

or for low income lazy assholes to get for people who actually work for there money .

true that man....people who work for it deserve it, they took the initiative.

[Pops Racer]

adamjjohn203, on 19 March 2010 - 09:47 PM, said:

It going to pass on Sunday!!! Wooohoooo!!! This is for the people, this is to preserve life!

preserve life?

you like it so much, you can pay my share of the taxes and fines.

Commie.

[khax]

looks like we're one step closer to joining the other first world countries.

[JCviggen]

WINGNUT, on 21 March 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

Commie.

The funny thing is, I saw an article about the numbers today, and the bottom line is that the hippy commie socialist version of healthcare we have in Western Europe does not only perform vastly better than the 'old' US system, it also costs about half in raw numbers. In terms of GDP, 10.2% (Belgium) vs 16% (US)

Higher life expectancy and quality of life go without saying.

I hate to give my money to the government as much as the next guy but I don't think anyone can disagree that the system that's currently in place in the US works efficiently on any level. Any amount of change should be welcomed. Even if it's a watered down compromised version that does little of what it set out to do.

As usual, the people who are most against it tend to know the least about it. BBC had an interesting article about something similar a while back Why people vote against their own interests

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Edited by JCviggen, 23 March 2010 - 11:40 AM.

[TorqueSteer]

JCviggen, on 23 March 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

The funny thing is, I saw an article about the numbers today, and the bottom line is that the hippy commie socialist version of healthcare we have in Western Europe does not only perform vastly better than the 'old' US system, it also costs about half in raw numbers. In terms of GDP, 10.2% (Belgium) vs 16% (US)

Higher life expectancy and quality of life go without saying.

I hate to give my money to the government as much as the next guy but I don't think anyone can disagree that the system that's currently in place in the US works efficiently on any level. Any amount of change should be welcomed. Even if it's a watered down compromised version that does little of what it set out to do.

As usual, the people who are most against it tend to know the least about it. BBC had an interesting article about something similar a while back Why people vote against their own interests

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

What is the ratio of public debt to GDP in Belgium?

[JCviggen]

TorqueSteer, on 23 March 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

What is the ratio of public debt to GDP in Belgium?

About 99% http://en.wikipedia...._by_public_debt

I can see where you're coming from, but it has nothing to with healthcare. Look at the scandinavian countries which have the highest level of government healthcare in the world, they have extremely low public debt figures.

And either way, national debt is another matter http://www.visualeco...ebt-by-country/ albeit out of date (US debt 12.6tr currently)

Edited by JCviggen, 23 March 2010 - 12:05 PM.

[Pops Racer]

None of those countries has the U.S. Constitution to refer to.

This is America not continental Europe. I'll take my chances with my own money, my own, skills and my initiative. My wife and I worked hard to get educated and employed in jobs that provide the benefits my family needs. I doubt any politician or wonk knows whats best for me an mine.

Lets see, Greece is in good shape, and so is France. Huh,wuh?.

Those clowns are so dependent on govt for jobs and benefits its so sad.

I say again, 300 million folks in the U.S. vs. what, 25 million in Scandinavia?

Name one govt program not rife with graft, corruption, over spending, fraud, inefficiency, red tape, and dumb bastards administering the BS.


Oh and I suppose Sweden has 15 million illegal aliens to deal with, ask California how thats working out.

Canadians are pissed off at the U.S. now. They don't have any where to go for good health care.

khax, on 22 March 2010 - 06:06 AM, said:

looks like we're one step closer to joining the other first world countries.

More like a Banana Republic, as soon as the dollar is done with its present devaluation.


Your the one who is going to pay, or your parents, so go get another job.

[JCviggen]

WINGNUT, on 23 March 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'll take my chances with my own money, my own, skills and my initiative. My wife and I worked hard to get educated and employed in jobs that provide the benefits my family needs. I doubt any politician or wonk knows whats best for me an mine.

Fair enough, but as you know you're already indirectly paying for the inefficient monstrosity that is the US healthcare system. Something that costs at least twice as much as is necessary while at the same time performing sub par is hardly something to cheer for. That's how it was last week, last month, last year. I don't quite see how this bill is making things worse. Projections are this will save money in the long run, even though not much improvement is expected. I can't help but feel that you are ignoring the fact that horribly efficient and expensive healthcare has already been in place for many years. 16% of GDP is rediculous any way you slice it, no?
I only bring up Europe because I expected our "socialist" health system to be hopelessly inefficient. Imagine my surprise to see the US manages to spend around double for less. From that perspective, hypothetically switching to something based on the european model could save trillions of dollars to the tax payer. Hypothetically obviously practically impossible.

Quote

Lets see, Greece is in good shape, and so is France. Huh,wuh?.

Irrelevant because they are not in that position because of healthcare. Besides, not all US states are doing so hot either.

Quote

I say again, 300 million folks in the U.S. vs. what, 25 million in Scandinavia?

The scale is indeed different so you can't draw any 1 to 1 comparisons. I only brought it up because someone seemed to think healthcare was the single cause for public debt.
However, that doesn't mean lessons cannot be drawn about how to organise healthcare efficiently. Either way the economies are of different scale too, US vs scandinavia. But it seems to me that good folks like yourself would rather pay more money rather than less just to keep to government from meddling in "your own matters".

Quote

Name one govt program not rife with graft, corruption, over spending, fraud, inefficiency, red tape, and dumb bastards administering the BS.

Impossible, it's still the government. It's never going to be efficient. But there are levels of bad. And either way, government is a necessary evil. You take the good with the bad.

Quote

as soon as the dollar is done with its present devaluation.

It's been going up since before new year and is still strong at 1.35 to the euro. It's been as low as ~1.60 2 years ago.

Edited by JCviggen, 23 March 2010 - 05:32 PM.

[ErikS]

JCviggen, on 23 March 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

The scale is indeed different so you can't draw any 1 to 1 comparisons. I only brought it up because someone seemed to think healthcare was the single cause for public debt.
However, that doesn't mean lessons cannot be drawn about how to organise healthcare efficiently. Either way the economies are of different scale too, US vs scandinavia. But it seems to me that good folks like yourself would rather pay more money rather than less just to keep to government from meddling in "your own matters".

I agree with you on many levels Jan, but it is hard to compare the cultural uniformity of central european countries (for the most part) and how that effects the organization and efficiencies of publically funded programs run by the state, such as healthcare vs the United States and our demographic changes and challenges.

Take for instance the policies of the ER's at many hospitals, which refuse care to no one, if they are willing to wait. What happens? They turn into primary care clinics for the uninsured, resulting in a completely inefficient model for those with actual problems.

This bill still leaves ~ 23 million people still not insured (only about 1/3 of which being illegal immigrants) so I really don't see anything changing dramatically for most Americans.

Its the evil word that starts with a T and ends with an X that most Americans fear, if we want something better, we have to be willing to pay the price.

[Mesoam]

so whats New Zeland like these days

[Pops Racer]

I get you Jan, but we have 50 separate laboratories to conduct experiments with.

And the reason the rest of govt is a mess is they insist on taking income, thinking they know better than the free market. look at the mess created since the '60's.

social justice? = forced income redistribution.

result? people stop trying and fold themselves into the opiate arms of the Fed. 1984.

how will they enforce this mandate to have insurance? IRS agents delving into personal finances, bank accounts etc.

if the govt was smaller the evil could be controlled. thats my whole point, its not necessarily about this week or this year or this decade, its about the last 100 yrs of govt largess, interference, and arrogance that created this mess. protect the borders and pave the roads, i'll take care of the rest. I know i sound like an ideologue, but i feel comfortable with my dogma. the more i read documents written by our founders the more i see a dangerous deviation from intent. Europe has no founding fathers, they derive from imperialism, colonialism and serfdom, among other things. I submit, arrogantly to you I'm sure, that with out U.S. principles and the open architecture of our society, the world would be in a much worse condition. DO we need some regulation? Yes, but not to the detriment of ideas, freedoms, and the free market, such as it is.

I also know that Greece and France is not about healthcare, its about further down the path that this healthcare takes us. govt as the major employer and Nanny of the mind.

Like I said, I'll take my chances with James Madison, you guys can have Obama and his Czars.

By the way, if they had included tort reform and true open market competition, the cost would drop dramatically.

Edited by WINGNUT, 23 March 2010 - 10:53 PM.

[khax]

WINGNUT, on 23 March 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

Your the one who is going to pay, or your parents, so go get another job.

indeed. i'm gonna be paying for all the bullshit that's gone on in this country the last few years. i simply have a problem calling every uninsured american lazy and unwilling to help their own situation. that's complete BS and the conservative movement does nothing but reinforce this and it's disgusting. trickle down is bullshit, our tax system is bullshit and i am behind anything that will help people to not suffer and die from treatable illness. our previous healthcare system was completely wasteful and profit-driven and it makes no sense to have an industry with an incentive to insure those who will not need medical care. i have no doubt this system will have its errors but it's a step in the right direction. i find it amusing people act like the constitution hasn't been completely shredded prior to this bill.

[Ihatespeedbumps]

Resistance is futile.


Coming soon to a trailer park near you: Obama will be unleashing an army of hippie activists to wade through the trash and beer cans in your yard to take your guns.


Did I mention the sky is falling?


I'm fucking stoked this passed. A step in the right (correct) direction.

[Pops Racer]

i never said any of that.

insurance profit driven?

do you have any idea how big the deals are that Obama cut with big pharma and the insurance industrys?

those evil profit takers need employees, and stock holders, you need profit to maintain all that.

so lets see, you want an organization to run this thing that runs a trillion dollar deficit every year, or a company that operates in the black? and can afford to provide good living wages to its employees, vacations, sick days etc? without the share holders PAYING to keep it operating? Cuz thats what we are, share holders in our govt, with a negative dividend. the services provided, while more than adequate, or provided at a much steeper price than the private sector.

I love free market economics.
now, khaxy, your getting your knickers in knot.

[Chilled Man]

khax, on 23 March 2010 - 11:06 PM, said:

. i find it amusing people act like the constitution hasn't been completely shredded prior to this bill.

So its ok to keep doing it ?

And what happend to survival of the fittest ?

Not every one should live regardless how unneeded they are ?

[Pops Racer]

when you all start paying for it in taxes and fees, or the IRS checks your shit out to make sure you bought the [product, get back to me. I'll be patient and wait, i'll be dead in 25 yrs, so i'll be able to let you know about rationing, end of life options and care denial.

be careful what you wish for.


you dont get the baseline of this whole argument.

i'll say it again for the zillionth time:

If govt wasnt so big and intrusive, and wasteful, and expensive, we would all have better educations, better jobs, better health, and better lives.


it passed, so relax , and we shall see.

none of you said shit for the last 3 months, now your coming outta the woodwork. figures. sun shine soldiers in the fight, arnt ya?