27 replies to this topic

[Jardon]

I disconnected one of the drop links to see what happened - I have front and rear IPD bars running with BC coilovers,1.5 degrees front negative camber, 1.0 degree of rear neg camber and some toe in front and rear.


The result so far is much better traction and far less wheelspin in all conditions - this was my aim. I feared it would roll all over the place and be scarily tail happy but up to now it seems relatively tame. It is noticeably more settled on rough surfaces and doesn't want to cock a wheel anymore on speed bumps taken at an angle.


With the bar attached I get a lot of traction loss at any front/rear damper settings from full hard to full soft. For sensible dive and roll control I was running the front dampers at 15 clicks (of 30) from full hard with the bar - less than 10 from full hard gets too jittery on my local roads to be enjoyable. At the same 15 from hard setting with the bar disconnected there was noticeably more front roll so I notched it up 4 clicks. Now very little roll (still more than with bar attached) but much more settled.


The traction difference has made me smile where previously I was cursing not getting power down in anything below 4th. My brain tells me this is probably illegal, may catch me out in the wet with snap oversteer and just sounds plain wrong. My experience of it is that the ride is comfier even at harder damper settings, the car pulls out of corners and in a straight line much better, is more composed overall and even with some fairly aggressive provocation the back end stays put. It "feels right".


I have bought a used 2001 23mm front bar off a 2.0t S60 to swap for the IPD one but even so I don't want to fit it. The IPD bar (25mm) is 40% stiffer than the stock one so I will get better traction if I swap but I think that with the stiffness of coilovers up front it is really driveable without. The IPD front bar with my set up is far from how I want it - I can't believe I drove the car with just the front one for ages, it must have been awful.


It has been firmly suggested I should fit the stock bar so in time that's what I'll do but I'd be interested in anybodys comments as we all rush out and buy these things without thinking sometimes (I did). Lets face it my HIDs/Carbotechs are not strictly legal but that doesn't make them dangerous - that's how I'm viewing the disconnected roll bar in the context of good roll control with coilovers..


Interesting link on the effect of roll bar thickness on stiffness (stiffness is proportional to thickness to the power 4).
http://www.balancemo.../Whiteline.html


eg: 23mm 23*23*23*23=279841

25mm 25*25*25*25=390625


so 390625/279841~1.4 ie: 40% stiffer.

[nari]

How about high speed cornering?

When mine was disconnected (read broken endlinks), sure felt better go around roundabouts, but i didn't like the roll at 60+ speeds, and also felt a bit more unstable.

[ozzimark]

A little body movement isn't a bad thing, especially when the ultimate goal is to maximize the amount of traction available. Preventing roll does help keep the suspension from changing the camber and toe, but if it's to the point of unloading the inside tire enough that you can't get traction when accelerating, it may be wise to rethink your ideas of a well handling car

Jardon, I've been thinking about doing something similar. We all know how easy it is to have the front end wash out into corners on these cars. I feel that roll stiffness should be achieved through suspension geometry and springs. Roll bars have always struck me as being a band-aid solution that may leave some undesirable traits in the handling. Have you tried a stiffer rear bar with no front bar?

[Gideon35T]

About to start a new track/street toy project. Once the roll cage is in I'll be experimenting with the front sway bar setup a bit. I'm hoping the chassis stiffness will allow me to ditch the sway. I want the front to stick while the rear stays flat through a turn. We'll see how the car responds I guess, every chassis is different. The biggest thing is to simply run the setup that you feel is most appropriate for the driving you do.

[fastwagonhawaii]

Most of the Volvo race cars I have seen and or read about actually use the stock front sway. with a larger rear sway. They reason being that they want the front to move a little for better traction. that's the set up that I am going to run when I am done. Stock sway front 25mm rear.

[GltGreco]

i plan to put my IPD rear sway in with the stock front bar at first to see how it is, but i have the same theory as above pretty much.

[FAST850R]

When I had integra gsr, I modified the suspension exactly same as integra type r, and the set up was same factory front sway bar with a bigger rear sway bar. Integra type r was the best handling fwd drive car at the time.
My gsr handled amazing.
Jcviggen was driving his car with the oem front, and 25mm rear.
Once I saved enough money, I'll overhaul the suspension of my car, ans the sway bars will be oem front, and 23mm ipd one.
Cheers.

[Gideon35T]

Well, it would appear the consensus so far that a lighter front sway (or stock) with a stiff rear sway is the winning combination.
Jardon - Did you keep the oem front sway?

[gmsgltr]

i love my front 25mm ipd sway, it made more of a difference in daily driving then the rear 25mm...

[the commissar!]

gmsgltr, on 08 December 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

i love my front 25mm ipd sway, it made more of a difference in daily driving then the rear 25mm...

Me too, but I guess it really depends on how you drive it.
Want more rear end rotation you gotta have more bar in the back than the front...
in the Saab world, most tuners only uprate the rear bar...I have a lovely big rear bar on my Viggen and stock on front...works great on that thing.

[Texas850Turbo]

I did some autocrosses with my front sway on, then disconnected a drop link and swapped in rear konis that were cranked up to full stiff to replace stock rear shocks. This was probably partly due to experience and trying new lines, but I was able to drop my time by 2 seconds on the same 50 second course. For tight courses you need to be able to rotate the car quickly and it would not get the tail out no matter what I did with the stock setup. Now I can use trail braking to bring it around nicely. I believe slaloms are worse due to slower transient response from no front sway bar but the main thing to take away is that these cars can respond well to drastic changes in the roll stiffness distribution from stock settings. I bet stock front and ipd rear would work great and sacrifice less transient response. On that note, is anyone looking to sell a 25mm ipd rear?

[InitialDriveGTR]

Good information. Gonna look into this when I get my car back.

[GltGreco]

put the rear sway in today with the stock front bar...so far i havent gotten the chance to really get used to it or see how it reacts, but i did almost spin my car around for the first time so thats pretty telling.

[Che'_Moderator]

For what its worth thats how I have run my 850. 23mm front bar 28mm rear bar.

[Jardon]

Hi guys, apologies fro the delay in replying - I need to sort out my email notifications. I am still running without the front bar connected and so far all good - much improved traction in a straight line and out of corners.

I don't notice any issue with roll or sloppy turn in but I have yet to get on track with it - the current set up is ideal for the prevailing conditions which tend to limit both traction and outright speed anyway.

Somebody asked about the rear - it's a 22mm IPD bar (I'm not sure what the stock one is). I have a stock front bar that may go on if I need it in the summer but I would like a stiffer rear bar - can I get a 25mm rear bar for a 2002 V70?

I have no oversteer issues and I don't want any - I suspect this has a lot to do with relatively stiff front coilovers and conservative toe settings (toe in front and rear). I run 1.5 degrees of negative camber front and rear.

[Jardon]

Forgot to add that I checked with my insurance company and they were happy with the ARB removal but no just a disconnected drop link - from what I can glean the same will apply to the MOT.

[Jardon]

I must stop replying to my own thread but:

As stock it was Front - 23mm, Rear - 21mm.

IPD was Front 25mm, Rear - 22mm but I didn't like it.

I currently run Front - NIL, Rear - 22mm.

I don't fancy running the front stock 23mm bar with the rear IPD 22mm bar but I have found this: http://www.ultraraci...ars.asp?ID=3811. It's a 25mm rear bar and I am very tempted as it may complement the stock front bar nicely.

[850wagonT5]

If you're just going in a straight line, I'm sure it feels like an improvement. But it would kill lap times on a race track by allowing the contact patch to deform badly from the body roll in hard cornering.

I've driven lifted 4x4's on the street with no sway bars. It can be a scary thing. lol.

[ozzimark]

850wagonT5, on 09 January 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

If you're just going in a straight line, I'm sure it feels like an improvement. But it would kill lap times on a race track by allowing the contact patch to deform badly from the body roll in hard cornering.

With an appropriate spring rate in the front, which it sounds like Jardon has, I'm not sure if I would agree with this sentiment.

Besides, if you can put the power down earlier, carrying a slightly slower speed through the apex isn't the end of the world.

[Oreo931]

I'm running a stock front sway and 25mm ipd rear bar. I love the way the car handles.