54 replies to this topic

[Gideon35T]

Che, on 13 December 2011 - 08:04 PM, said:

http://volvospeed.co...rs_general.html <-- good read.

I've been using the Lucas Motorsports octane booster for years now. I remember reading your article a while back and confirming what my butt dyno already knew. I am still curious to see what guys try doing with E85 on our volvos though. See if there's any definitive evidence to support it as a worthwhile octane booster. I'll stick with Lucas or a splash or race gas for now though.

[AverageVolvo]

Just use some TOLUENE(114 OCTANE) for an octane booster. No more than 1-5 gas ratio(20%)

[Texas850Turbo]

While the octane rating thing is controversial, it is not controversial that E85 is a knock suppressant and allows for more boost or ignition timing, while also cooling the intake charge upon injection.
Here's a good paper: http://www.ethanolbo...FEE-2006-01.pdf

Our Formula SAE team runs E85 on a 12:1 compression sport bike engine running 8psi and no intercooler, and our engine failure mode is blowing up transmissions from the extra torque, not detonation. Just make sure your fuel system is compatible, which isn't really that hard. E85 and rubber don't get along, and if you use aluminum it should be anodized. Fuel lines with teflon liners work perfectly.

With all the new direct injection engines coming out (ecoboost 4 cylinders in the new volvos), E85 gives an even greater performance advantage due to better use of it's latent heat of vaporization. Look up what the chevy cobalt guys are doing with 54mm turbos (500+whp).

[Texas850Turbo]

Even better paper with experimental results and a definite answer as to E85's octane rating-
http://delphi.com/pd...010-01-0619.pdf

[Che'_Moderator]

E85 and octane are both worthless unless the vehicle is tuned to use it, or designed to in some cases. Thats the big joke about octane boosters. In a NA engine adding octane is really only going to get you back to stock levels with no timing pull. To go beyond a few % over stock you have to change things like compression or rpm to take advantage of it. E85 is an ok fuel for racing but makes almost zero sense in a street car unless you can buy it subsidized.

[Texas850Turbo]

True, but if you have a boosted street car that you can easily retune it is a lot cheaper than say, C16, and worth a substantial fraction of the performance. On the lowest level, you just scale your fuel maps for the new stoich ratio and you get all the cooling benefit without any real tuning, and spark retard from the knock sensor will be a thing of the past. Then if you feel like it you can turn up the boost or whatever to get all the benefits.

I've seen some people incorporate the GM flexfuel sensors into their engine management so that they can fill up with gasoline and putt around, then put E85 in and get all the performance back without doing anything, and you have a very failsafe system on top of it if the E85 is actually E50 or something.

[Che'_Moderator]

You can do that. But now you are talking 230 mile range. There is also the issue of E85 not being that much higher in octane than pump fuel unless you are sure of your source. The stuff is very hydrophillic.

[Jardim]

Minnesota probably has the best E85 in the country.

[ARD - Lucky]

I've got some E85 maps done... the timing curves are awesome and so is the power but I've done very little testing long term so I can only weigh in as it regards power development.

To be honest I just put Greens in a car and adjusted the VE slightly since they are already 24% larger than stock and get you pretty close to the 30% increase in fuel that E85 needs relative to gasoline. It's a touch more complex than that but not hugely so.

I'm happy to provide a tune to Volvospeed for trial, maybe something VS can do as a proper test thread??? Chuck that's your cue...

Edited by ARD - Lucky, 14 December 2011 - 03:45 AM.

[Che'_Moderator]

ARD - Lucky, on 14 December 2011 - 03:44 AM, said:

I've got some E85 maps done... the timing curves are awesome and so is the power but I've done very little testing long term so I can only weigh in as it regards power development.

To be honest I just put Greens in a car and adjusted the VE slightly since they are already 24% larger than stock and get you pretty close to the 30% increase in fuel that E85 needs relative to gasoline. It's a touch more complex than that but not hugely so.

I'm happy to provide a tune to Volvospeed for trial, maybe something VS can do as a proper test thread??? Chuck that's your cue...

Hands down the best person would be monkeyboy.... Beinglax. Hes bias but hes had a hard on about this for a long time. If he would be willing to do some dyno pulls he would be perfect person to try it out.

[rbodor3]

ARD - Lucky, on 14 December 2011 - 03:44 AM, said:

I've got some E85 maps done... the timing curves are awesome and so is the power but I've done very little testing long term so I can only weigh in as it regards power development.

To be honest I just put Greens in a car and adjusted the VE slightly since they are already 24% larger than stock and get you pretty close to the 30% increase in fuel that E85 needs relative to gasoline. It's a touch more complex than that but not hugely so.

I'm happy to provide a tune to Volvospeed for trial, maybe something VS can do as a proper test thread??? Chuck that's your cue...

and boom goes the dyno mite. (get it)

[RobT5.]

Soooo theres no real reason for me to fill up the tank with e85 at the station on my way home every day?
Unless I was tuned for it.

I pass a rest station every day twice on the way to work and home from work.
Havent really looked at the price. but I know regular pump gas is insanely over priced there.


I have 4gal left... which would get me home. but would it hurt if I put like idk 3-4gal in of e85 with the 93.
Edit... If Chuck is right id just be mixing 94 with 93. So it shouldnt hurt anything.

[Che'_Moderator]

RobT5A, on 15 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Edit... If Chuck is right id just be mixing 94 with 93. So it shouldnt hurt anything.

Dont misquote me peckerslap. If you assume all open loop you will be 30% lean doing that.

[RobT5.]

Haha good thing I didnt do it. was over 4$ a gal so I said fuuuuu no. and paid the 3.69 for prem

[Keaton85]

I would be in, if Chuck is actually willing to add info that would help determining what we could do with this fuel in a daily driver or performance spectrum. Not just the battle between him and I. I rather just pull real figures and see what we can make work.... I have no problem going into this with no expectations...

All I really have to offer though is my 98 V70 T5M that is stock and a 01 V70 T5M that is undergoing the knife. So in terms monitoring I would need to get a few things in order to gauge the tune and how to effectively use this fuel CORRECTLY.

That's if Lucky even wants to bother as he probably has better things to do then spend time on an E85 tune.

[Che'_Moderator]

please delete, on 16 December 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

I would be in, if Chuck is actually willing to add info that would help determining what we could do with this fuel in a daily driver or performance spectrum. Not just the battle between him and I. I rather just pull real figures and see what we can make work.... I have no problem going into this with no expectations...

All I really have to offer though is my 98 V70 T5M that is stock and a 01 V70 T5M that is undergoing the knife. So in terms monitoring I would need to get a few things in order to gauge the tune and how to effectively use this fuel CORRECTLY.

That's if Lucky even wants to bother as he probably has better things to do then spend time on an E85 tune.

I have no problem indulging you. You are still wrong though Also no doubt it can be done, but the mileage will be sucktastic.

[Keaton85]

Fine, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if the numbers come up that way. Just chill and lets actually run some data here and get real world info. All I'm claiming is a decrease in MPG of about 15% with a correct tune.

So, what's our first course of action?

[Che'_Moderator]

please delete, on 16 December 2011 - 04:20 AM, said:

Fine, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if the numbers come up that way. Just chill and lets actually run some data here and get real world info. All I'm claiming is a decrease in MPG of about 15% with a correct tune.

So, what's our first course of action?

Just for giggles, even if it is only 15%. Is ethanol 15% cheaper than petrol there?

[Keaton85]

It's about 8-10% cheaper, comparing to regular 87.

[Che'_Moderator]

please delete, on 16 December 2011 - 04:28 AM, said:

It's about 8-10% cheaper, comparing to regular 87.

So best case its the same price per mile..... WTFs the point? And lots of places its quite a bit more