144 replies to this topic

[dublin14]

lookforjoe, on 29 January 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

I read a number of DSM threads last night on the 6262 - quite a few talked about running out of injectors - I think maybe I'll need bigger than the 700ish I have now - I was hitting 80% duty cycle with the 60-1 compressor - this thing is quite a bit larger... Couldn't find any specifics on injector sizing recommendations, maybe 1000cc?

I would be. 1000cc + injectors seem to be what this turbo wants. I think a 63ar is all you need with this turbo also?

[lookforjoe]

dublin14, on 29 January 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I would be. 1000cc + injectors seem to be what this turbo wants. I think a 63ar is all you need with this turbo also?

I went with .82ar, I don't want to be choking up top as I am now. Since I will have a standard 3" V-band DP (instead of my funky 4-bolt DSM mitsu flange) after this, I can always swap hotsides if I really need to.

[ozzimark]

lookforjoe, on 29 January 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

They're nice, they're not cheap. $1900+ for the 8374 series, comparable to the 6262 spec

But you won't need the wastegate or recirc valve anymore, since they're built in. Also, the 7670 is more comparable to the Garret GT3582R

[JCviggen]

dublin14, on 29 January 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

1000cc + injectors seem to be what this turbo wants.

Depends on the # of cyl's obviously. I would think 1000 is excessive. 700cc's should be good for well over 500hp on a 5-cylinder...1000 is something I'd look at if I was gunning for 800hp.
I never pushed my Siemens 630's past 75% even in winter when it was doing well over 420 crank. Fuel pressure iirc 4.3 bar at full boost.

[dublin14]

Thats true. Although, Hussein said he's already at 80% with the Turbo he has now with 710cc injectors. I see a few of the GT35R 500hp+ 850s in Sweden using 1000cc injectors? Might be excessive, but time will tell I guess.

Edited by dublin14, 29 January 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[JCviggen]

The methanol guys use massive injectors...the others running 1000cc+ I would suspect are over 700 or planning to go there. If Hussein is staying with M4.4 I'd keep injector size as modest as possible, it's awfully picky about big injectors. I mean cars have done over 280 at the wheels with 350cc stock white Bosch injectors...320whp on my old engine was maxing out 410cc injectors. The math suggests 700cc injectors should deliver 500whp worth.

Edited by JCviggen, 29 January 2012 - 04:18 PM.

['93 Dave]

JCviggen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

The methanol guys use massive injectors...the others running 1000cc+ I would suspect are over 700 or planning to go there. If Hussein is staying with M4.4 I'd keep injector size as modest as possible, it's awfully picky about big injectors. I mean cars have done over 280 at the wheels with 350cc stock white Bosch injectors...320whp on my old engine was maxing out 410cc injectors. The math suggests 700cc injectors should deliver 500whp worth.

unless the ratio changes exponentially at higher hp #'s?

[JCviggen]

Well it doesn't. It changes a bit though. That's why i'm not suggesting 600.

[dublin14]

Yeah looks like some of the guys running E85 are using 1200cc+ injectors. Thats some big ass injectors.

Edited by dublin14, 29 January 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[lookforjoe]

JCviggen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

The methanol guys use massive injectors...the others running 1000cc+ I would suspect are over 700 or planning to go there. If Hussein is staying with M4.4 I'd keep injector size as modest as possible, it's awfully picky about big injectors. I mean cars have done over 280 at the wheels with 350cc stock white Bosch injectors...320whp on my old engine was maxing out 410cc injectors. The math suggests 700cc injectors should deliver 500whp worth.

The problem is I've already documented that 710cc injectors (3.8bar base) hit almost 80% IDC (@ WOT, so approx 5bar) on my current setup (Garrett 60-1 compressor). I can't see it improving with higher air flow. anyway, I've asked Adam (TT) to get back to me on that.

ozzimark, on 29 January 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

But you won't need the wastegate or recirc valve anymore, since they're built in. Also, the 7670 is more comparable to the Garret GT3582R

but... looking at the WGA design & fit, it won't clear my firewall with the LG Speed header - it's like the pic Lars sent me....



... no way in hell that would ever fit in a V70

I had to do this to get mine to fit

[ozzimark]

Minor details. That's why I was planning on making that exhaust manifold. Man, did that project ever stall..
Even better is that the pic Lars sent you is with the smaller EFR frame. The 7064/7670 are bigger than that, and the 8374 and up are one size larger still. I'm holding out for a 7163 now.

At the end of the day, you're fighting physics. A larger turbine will flow better and improve top-end VE, but at the expense of spool. Unless you can get your hands on a variable geometry turbo, you'll have to settle for something that is a compromise that will get you the closest to what you think you want..

[JCviggen]

lookforjoe, on 29 January 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

The problem is I've already documented that 710cc injectors (3.8bar base) hit almost 80% IDC (@ WOT, so approx 5bar) on my current setup (Garrett 60-1 compressor).

I can't remember, how high does FP go up for you at boost? Maybe you should get an adjustable regulator. If your injectors actually flow 710cc at 3 bar then you shouldn't hit 80% at the power levels we could guess you were making, unless we're talking about insane rpm points - if that's the case I'd rather just up the duty cycle at 8000rpm than size them specifically for that.

Edited by JCviggen, 30 January 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[lookforjoe]

JCviggen, on 30 January 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I can't remember, how high does FP go up for you at boost? Maybe you should get an adjustable regulator. If your injectors actually flow 710cc at 3 bar then you shouldn't hit 80% at the power levels we could guess you were making, unless we're talking about insane rpm points - if that's the case I'd rather just up the duty cycle at 8000rpm than size them specifically for that.

I have an adjustable regulator, which is now set at 3.9-4bar, raised from 3.5. I see at least 5bar FP (measured) over 12psi boost. The injectors flow just over 650 @ 3 bar. I can't recall exactly where in my data logs the event was logged, but I raised the base pressure to 3.9-4bar specifically because I was hitting 80% somewhere around 7400, I believe.

In TT, I can't scale the map over 7600, so I can increase fueling up to that point, but not beyond. I'll have to ask Adam about that too.
Remember that I have the Garrett 60-1 compressor, I'm flowing high cfm's by the time I get to 7K range with my log intake. SInce I can run to 8400rpm, and most of the forum threads I have found indicate running out of fuel by the time they get to 7500 @ 17-18psi, with the 6262.

In any event, Adam said it will be difficult getting an good idle AFR with injectors that large, so I will leave what I have & see what I get.

[JCviggen]

To be honest even with a big turbo like that there's no reason to rev far beyond 7600 with the setup you have. It's not going to make peak power at 8+ grand. It's nice for shits and giggles to rev it really high but it's hardly worth focusing on from a performance point of view. The last logs you posted I would guesstimate you were in the 330-340whp region based on acceleration times, difficult to extrapolate engine power from that with any kind of precision but it shouldn't be close to maxing out those injectors except where the available valve open time becomes really short at the very top.

I actually see your dyno info in your sig now, was that in fwd mode? If so my guesstimation would probably be close.

[lookforjoe]

JCviggen, on 30 January 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

To be honest even with a big turbo like that there's no reason to rev far beyond 7600 with the setup you have. It's not going to make peak power at 8+ grand. It's nice for shits and giggles to rev it really high but it's hardly worth focusing on from a performance point of view. The last logs you posted I would guesstimate you were in the 330-340whp region based on acceleration times, difficult to extrapolate engine power from that with any kind of precision but it shouldn't be close to maxing out those injectors except where the available valve open time becomes really short at the very top.

I actually see your dyno info in your sig now, was that in fwd mode? If so my guesstimation would probably be close.

You're right, I won't be routinely running over 7600 rpm, I think.

350WHP was FWD, but that was before the header & log manifold, so significantly less timing in the dyno'd map. I would have to say over 350AWDHP with the setup before I broke it. 5sec 60-100 wagon with full interior, etc was the best time I got.

[JCviggen]

Did you ever weigh your car btw? To be honest over 60mph, certainly over 100mph the weight starts to matter less as it all gets to be about wind resistance. Your numbers are about the same as mine did on the stock engine and 320whp, how much to add for the weight is a big guessing game. My 2 ton barge with 440whp is only as fast 62-124 as my 850 was with 320 so the weight penalty is still significant at those speeds. Above 130 though it's no contest. If we put your car in the middle it might have been doing 380 at the front wheels, but I think it's a bit closer in weight to the 850 than to the Audi.

Edited by JCviggen, 30 January 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[lookforjoe]

JCviggen, on 30 January 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Did you ever weigh your car btw? To be honest over 60mph, certainly over 100mph the weight starts to matter less as it all gets to be about wind resistance. Your numbers are about the same as mine did on the stock engine and 320whp, how much to add for the weight is a big guessing game. My 2 ton barge with 440whp is only as fast 62-124 as my 850 was with 320 so the weight penalty is still significant at those speeds. Above 130 though it's no contest. If we put your car in the middle it might have been doing 380 at the front wheels, but I think it's a bit closer in weight to the 850 than to the Audi.

V70 XC AWD is over 3800lbs. I am very curious to see how it performs with the new setup. Will be at least 2 months, I've only just finished my Master's Thesis (Finally!!) so I can now spend some time getting the engine out & rebuilt.

[Captain Bondo]

Yet another turbo setup change. Same weak link.

I check in on this forum once in a while - partially to check out how things are going for you, Hussein.

One day you will toss the TT and put a standalone in. The heavens will open and it will make the power it should.

355 at 22psi is 100whp short of what it should make with all of your mods. The TT is killing you. The only significant difference (other than an extra cylinder) between your setup and mine is the TT. That turbo is only slightly smaller than a 35R really.

I know I always get branded a TT hater or hater in general with these remarks, but I am speaking from experience. My car with a 35R sized turbo made 540whp on 22psi...

[550]

Captain Bondo, on 31 January 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Yet another turbo setup change. Same weak link.

I check in on this forum once in a while - partially to check out how things are going for you, Hussein.

One day you will toss the TT and put a standalone in. The heavens will open and it will make the power it should.

355 at 22psi is 100whp short of what it should make with all of your mods. The TT is killing you. The only significant difference (other than an extra cylinder) between your setup and mine is the TT. That turbo is only slightly smaller than a 35R really.

I know I always get branded a TT hater or hater in general with these remarks, but I am speaking from experience. My car with a 35R sized turbo made 540whp on 22psi...

Agreed. TT has it's limits.

[EricF]

As I alluded to before, I think there is an issue with ignition timing... I also think a standalone would be a good move, better than going bigger on the turbo, at least for right now.

My car is not too crazy, but its powerband is super linear and with stock manifold/heads/cams. The difference between it and every other Motronic setup I have run is that it has consistent adequate timing advance in the high RPM range. This is observed easily in the driving experience Next time anyone is in FL, feel free to stop by and I will show you.