62 replies to this topic

[Zappo]

Gideon35T, on 03 February 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm confused why this thread questions understeer.
Oversteer is the issue with fwd cars and is the reason to run a stiffer rear and looser front.
I don't believe you could you could impart enough oversteer on the platform to be a concern.
Take the car to an empty parking lot and try your setup. Then disconnect the front sway and try again. You still wont be able to acheive oversteer but will likely get a lot less understeer as the front will stay planted better. Also, setup a rear strut bar and/or chassis brace. This will stiffen the rear and get it to swing flat and predictably.

You can. I was able to kick mine out in the rain with a 25/25 setup, but I had to try to do it. It isn't that difficult to spin the car either, especially in autocross. Touching the brakes in a corner will rotate the back end, and if you do it in the rain it will most likely spin out the car.

I believe at least one person who used to be on VS totaled his car by setting up his car to oversteer, then went and did something stupid on the road. Normal driving it would have been fine.

[550]

Zappo, on 03 February 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

You can. I was able to kick mine out in the rain with a 25/25 setup, but I had to try to do it. It isn't that difficult to spin the car either, especially in autocross. Touching the brakes in a corner will rotate the back end, and if you do it in the rain it will most likely spin out the car.

I believe at least one person who used to be on VS totaled his car by setting up his car to oversteer, then went and did something stupid on the road. Normal driving it would have been fine.

Agreed.

I can easily initiate a slide in my car... it is NOT fun. But yeah, "proper" braking in a turn or with a slight turn in the front wheels can really set it in motion. I have also seen these car's spin out even in the dry with decent tires. All it requires is a rapid change in suspension and weight distribution and you will slide in a bad way.

[Gideon35T]

Driving in the rain and/or TRYING to induce the car to slide is not within the realm of autox

Besides the fact that controlled oversteer can be a positive thing. Stiff suspension helps eliminate the "pop" you get with a rapid change in direction. Keep, we're talking about a track application here people. Not to mention that autox is the slowest of motorsports. He's not going to be doing an acute angle turn at high speeds.

[Jardim]

Zappo, on 03 February 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

You can. I was able to kick mine out in the rain with a 25/25 setup, but I had to try to do it. It isn't that difficult to spin the car either, especially in autocross. Touching the brakes in a corner will rotate the back end, and if you do it in the rain it will most likely spin out the car.

I believe at least one person who used to be on VS totaled his car by setting up his car to oversteer, then went and did something stupid on the road. Normal driving it would have been fine.

One time I was on this road


Coming from hosmer st. and a fox jumped out in front of me in that first left corner and i spun the rear almost falling into the ditch on the side, it was slightly wet out, so i can see that happening in this instance especially when your car is setup to induce oversteer. Its really scarry when your going 30-35 and you just do a 180 in the middle of the road.

[Gideon35T]

Also taking into consideration driving skill obviously. An amateur driver can spin out a car that would never give such a problem to a pro driver.
Trail braking is important but many people forget that your oem biasing isn't even close to what's needed for the track. You can't just blip the brake pedal in the middle of a turn with the stock brake setup and expect the car to respond optimally.

Again though, I wouldn't call trying to respond in an emergency so you dont get into an accident the same as track use ...

[Jardim]

As soon as the car was "done" spinning or going in reverse i slammed on the brakes and came to a stop and the car was half on the sidewalk and half in some mud, best advice i can give in a situation like that is to remain calm, try to feel out the movement, forget about trees you cant see right now and come to a stop.

[Fishey]

Gideon35T, on 03 February 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm confused why this thread questions understeer.
Oversteer is the issue with fwd cars and is the reason to run a stiffer rear and looser front.
I don't believe you could you could impart enough oversteer on the platform to be a concern.

Take the car to an empty parking lot and try your setup. Then disconnect the front sway and try again. You still wont be able to acheive oversteer but will likely get a lot less understeer as the front will stay planted better. Also, setup a rear strut bar and/or chassis brace. This will stiffen the rear and get it to swing flat and predictably.

Just do a little research into what fwd track toys use and you'll have all the info you need. Also, start saving for that lsd. With a fwd open diff you'll be suffering trying to exit corners and give her some throttle. I suggest relocating your battery as well. It's very heavy but you can place that weight just about anywhere on the car. It's oem location will not help you on the track at all.

Also, what are you running for wheels & tires? Huge gains can be made with the right choices there.

I haven't tracked a Volvo but I've built lots of toys on all kinds of platforms. I've found that 9/10 a fwd + lsd diff + battery relocation + chassis stiffening + reasonable suspension + stiff rear sway + loose or no front sway = Drastically better than every open diff car regardless of hp difference. Even miatas (owners of the autox world) suffer with an open diff.

Yea, This depends...

Diff settings are one of the biggest changes you can make into a car and its not as simply as Open is crap and LSD = Amazing! I mean on turn in for example in my 924S Open diff is way better as it will allow me to rotate the back end as I want to and dramatically increases my ability to turn in. Almost all LSD's you will find on the street will cause the car to push wide in a RWD when your pushing it hard at turn in. However, once you hit apex the story completely changes you need that grip the LSD provides in most cars to put the power to the ground. Now, In my 924S on full slicks it really doesn't make a difference its 150hp are not going to break the back end loose or go very fast in general so high speed cornering doesn't really matter. So, in my 924S in back to back sessions with a gearbox change my stock open gearbox provided faster laps vs a LSD box. (I only bring it up because of your Miata refernce) However, I run the LSD gearbox in it as its just better for every day driving making the car far less prone to lift off oversteer. Now, of course this is with a RWD car. The Quaife diffs I have run in FWD cars have almost always had nothing but positive benifits to the car.

Edited by Fishey, 04 February 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Gideon35T]

Way more important in general on a fwd but your point is valid. There are several versions of lsd which all behave differently. A worn in viscous lsd wont give you that entry issue for example. Also, 1.5 way locks under acceleration but NOT deceleration. That fact alters how you drive with it. A 2.0 way locks for both and pretty much acts as a welded diff.
We're kinda getting to the point of threadjacking here so let me just say that a lsd, especially on a fwd, will be a drastic improvement on the autox track. I think we can all agree on that.

[VolvoRacer850R]

I think the thread has been jacked but my question has been answered and I like where its headed. I am just starting out here learning as i go. I have a pretty good grasp of theory and so forth and the more time i spend running the more time i have shaved off. Consider this... My first few runs were in the 1:06 range and my best times were in the 1:00 to 59.9 best time Thats after two events. While I accept that there is a ton of places to improve the car , I feel that I have learned a ton as a driver. not to mention that no one expects the four door Volvo to do anything of note which is very interesting. Besides that i have a great time and its pretty cheap. I like that the car has a ton of room for improvement as well. It has given me something to do. there are certainly better cars out there, but if you can learn to make an ill handleing do your bidding by changing driving style then i think you learn more. my .2

[550]

VolvoRacer850R, on 03 February 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

I think the thread has been jacked but my question has been answered and I like where its headed. I am just starting out here learning as i go. I have a pretty good grasp of theory and so forth and the more time i spend running the more time i have shaved off. Consider this... My first few runs were in the 1:06 range and my best times were in the 1:00 to 59.9 best time Thats after two events. While I accept that there is a ton of places to improve the car , I feel that I have learned a ton as a driver. not to mention that no one expects the four door Volvo to do anything of note which is very interesting. Besides that i have a great time and its pretty cheap. I like that the car has a ton of room for improvement as well. It has given me something to do. there are certainly better cars out there, but if you can learn to make an ill handleing do your bidding by changing driving style then i think you learn more. my .2

I don't care what anyone says... anyway you can test your abilities and get a chance to learn your car and how to control it in a safe setting is of a benefit to you. Auto crossing may not be ideal for these cars (which I kind of agree with... I dislike auto crossing mine, but to each their own), but it does with out a doubt enhance your driving ability, and when used in correct ways can help you be a better driver in general. Never know when you may need to slalom around some little kid jumping out in front of you. Or someone abruptly stopping to make a turn with out signaling. Happens every day... there are two kinds of people: the ones who know how to get out the effin way, and the ones who hit the kid, or slam into the rear end of that car.

That's my .02

[Zappo]

In the beginning, driver is always where you make the most time. If they have a novice school I suggest signing up for it. Or, if you can get one of the more experienced drivers to ride along with you, they can give you tips to help improve your driving.

Also, there is no substitution for seat time. The more you drive, the better you get at it, or at least should. As you get more relaxed, you will start to look farther ahead and it will help you setup for each of the elements.

[Gideon35T]

Biggest single tip I can give is on driving - Most new drivers to circuit and autox tend to drive with 1 hand on the shifter. If that's you then learn to not do that, haha.
If you get someone to do a ridealong with you (likely will, most autox'ers are good guys) it'll be the 1st thing he tells you about.
What wheels and tires are you running btw? I'd highly suggest 17's to eliminate the most sidewall and therefor sidewall.
What are your class rules btw and what class are you aiming for? I run higher classes only because my vehicles tend to be gutted and have performance bits therefor they make me.

[Zappo]

He will probably just run novice for the first year. During that time he can figure out what class he will run.

[Gideon35T]

Well, there's SSCC classes but there's also car classes. That was the group I was asking about, haha.
For example: Here's the local place by me - http://www.sierraspo...carclasses.html

[Zappo]

There are SCCA classes, and then classes by local clubs that put on the events. The link you posted seems to be a mix of those, Most clubs will have a Novice class and a Time Only, or as your club calls it, Open. Novice gives you time to learn more about it and you can ask people what class would be good to run in after noivce. People normally run novice for a year before switching.

I would suggest not running an indexed class because SCCA doesn't index the 850 very well. As has been stated, it isn't that good of a car autocross, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. Best part for me is beating cars I shouldn't be able to beat, like most of the STIs in my class.

For me, my car is so modified now that I can really only run in 1 class for SCCA, and that is SMF. I don't have the desire to spend the money for the two sets of slicks a year it would require for me to be competative in the class, so I normally don't run my car for SCCA events. I will drive other people's cars though.

[AdirondackVolvo]

I love beating Subarus in AutoX. That is the most fun thing ever.

I'm running a completely stock V70XC in my College AutoX club events and I like the way it handles. I've gotten a reputation around school as that kid with the Volvo Wagon that throws it around like a civic. I miss having the AWD as I could tap the brakes and get it a hair sideways, which made hard corner entry way easier. Tires do matter though, Wal-Mart Viva 2's are garbage. I went to a Good-year Eagle GT and the car stiffened right up , so we'll see what happens with the 17' Michelins I just put on it.

[VolvoRacer850R]

I'm not running SCCA or NASA we run with a group of guys that are sancioned uner the local corvette club. They put on an even and because the corvette guys are to whatever they dont show up to run. That leaves us the mixed bunch from one corvette to a '68VW beetle we are dividing the group into three classes for this year because of interest. Running this way keeps our costs way down $15 for the day, however many heats they decide and then the rest of the day is as many runs as you can do. They are timed but dont count for the event so it is more or less practice. I love it. I'm getting annoyed with guys who have the income and the equipment to run track days coming around saying "hey why don't you run on a real track ect" If i had that kind of expendable income i sure as hell would. I run my car prepped as best i can on a set of Falken street tires and go out there with a four door sedan and run 2 tenths off a 2006 GTO 6.0 with a damn good driver behind the wheel. I enjoy it its in my price range and i am spending time improving both myself as the driver and the car. The Volvo i think is a very capable car in the right class and with a driver that knows how to get the most out of it. I'd love to go up from here hopefully that will happen. I think that the 850 prepped out correctly would be a formidable road racer and it has the pedigree.

[Jardim]

VolvoRacer850R, on 06 February 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

I'm not running SCCA or NASA we run with a group of guys that are sancioned uner the local corvette club. They put on an even and because the corvette guys are to whatever they dont show up to run. That leaves us the mixed bunch from one corvette to a '68VW beetle we are dividing the group into three classes for this year because of interest. Running this way keeps our costs way down $15 for the day, however many heats they decide and then the rest of the day is as many runs as you can do. They are timed but dont count for the event so it is more or less practice. I love it. I'm getting annoyed with guys who have the income and the equipment to run track days coming around saying "hey why don't you run on a real track ect" If i had that kind of expendable income i sure as hell would. I run my car prepped as best i can on a set of Falken street tires and go out there with a four door sedan and run 2 tenths off a 2006 GTO 6.0 with a damn good driver behind the wheel. I enjoy it its in my price range and i am spending time improving both myself as the driver and the car. The Volvo i think is a very capable car in the right class and with a driver that knows how to get the most out of it. I'd love to go up from here hopefully that will happen. I think that the 850 prepped out correctly would be a formidable road racer and it has the pedigree.

You know, TWR prepared a very well tuned 850 and it did pretty good in the 96-97 seasons so with the right setup and prep the car will be capable, you just gotta pay to play.

[wizzard_al]

TWR"s deciding advantage was that they used the racing rules to their advantage, and built a cylinder head that was head and shoulders above the competition. (and, I suspect, other things they have not disclosed) They were able to produce over 300 hp at a time their competitors were making 285 hp. When they started using the S40 bodies, they won the BTCC. For anyone who has wondered about the cylinder head we see in all the TWR pictures with the two oil filler caps, that was NOT the head they used in the races. I suspect that was a bit of letting you wonder about something that was a mirage. the racing cylinder head was easily distinguished, all the surfaces on the top were flat, no little valleys between cylinders, and it had no openings in it for putting in oil. Probably had dry sump system.
See Racecar Engineering, August 2009 issue.

[Gideon35T]

I wouldn't exactly call a spare no expense race car on par with the OP's build plan, haha.
Driver skill, suspension, and traction. Those are the key areas to address here. The car is plenty powerful enough.
LSD, stiff rear sway, 17" wheels with good rubber, practice - That will make for a nice improvement.
OP - I would seriously try disconnecting your front sway and see what you think.