22 replies to this topic

[bergmjs]

So for a while I thought I had a bad check valve in my fuel pump because if I didn't hold the key in pos II for 3 seconds before starting, it would just crank away forever. Finally pulled a new fuel pump out of the junkyard, installed it with a new fuel filter and the car behaved exactly the same.

It has only gotten worse from there, now it will only start on random occasion. 9/10 attempts to start it, it just cranks and cranks and cranks. There is plenty of fuel pressure at the rail, but the tailpipe doesn't have even a hint of gas in it after cranking for ~10 seconds.

Taking the coil wire and holding it next to a ground and cranking results in either no spark at all or a random single spark.

On that 1/10 chance that it does start, the car runs perfectly, no stumbles, no hiccups, drives perfectly. I swapped the cam position sensor to a brand new Autozone unit, still no spark. I tried 4 different used MAFs, still no spark. I cleaned the crank sensor, but Autozone doesn't have a new one on hand, still no spark.

Does this sound like the crank sensor is bad? No codes stored either, nice 1-1-1.

Thanks

[volvoguy23]

Could be your fuel injection relay, fuel pump relay maybe....sounds like a few different problems. Pull the injectors and see if there spraying while someone cranks the car. If there spraying its probably a ignition issue. You have oil leaking anywhere by the distributor???

[bergmjs]

Injector relay is fine, it clicks on when you turn the key. Injectors themselves are not firing. Fuel pump relay is brand new within a year, distributor cap/rotor, wires, and plugs are all brand new OEM within 6 months.

Distributor wouldn't matter anyways, I'm not getting any spark out of the coil, before it even gets to the distributor.

Again, it'll start every once in a while and run fine, so I'm thinking it's something in the control scheme that the ECU isn't getting all the necessary inputs to send out the injector and coil pulses to start the car. But once it's already started, it's fine. So is there an input that's necessary to start, but not to run once it's already going? An interlock somewhere?

[volvoguy23]

I honestly dont know your last questions but if i was in your situation i would swap out ecu's with a known good one, i would also check the harness that goes to the ecu. If your getting no spark or fuel then theres a big electrical issue or ecu is toast. I find it strange that it starts evry now and then. Ill do some research cause im kinda interested.

[bergmjs]

ECU should be fine, it's an ARD blue tuned ECU and I don't have any spares. If the ECU were toast, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't run at all or start ever. I ordered a new crank position sensor and I'll swap that out tomorrow and see if it works.

[volvoguy23]

What all have you done to the car?? How longs this been going on?? I would check the terminals on the battery and check your grounds youd be suprised what can happen with loose or bad power/grounds.

[bergmjs]

Grounds and battery are fine, been doing the prime-to-start thing for a few months.

And by a few months I mean like 8 months.

[bergmjs]

Replaced the crank sensor, still doesn't work. I reseated the ECU and it started a whole 4 times in a row, then refused to start again. So I took the whole ECU box apart and blew everything out with contact cleaner, put it back together and it still wouldn't start. Any other ideas? This is getting really frustrating.

[s_moneh]

i'm going to go with cam sensor only because i had this issue

[Bah]

be 100% sure on the cam sensor...that's almost exactly how it was for me...the contacts were dirty (the connector f*cking melted...) so i rigged it back in. best 100$ i ever spent was on a new bosch...And i sat there cranking going WTF why won't it start and never smelled gas, but found pressure at the rail. No code for it after the connector fell apart, and the plug was completely disconnected even....So the no-code is misleading on it.
I just don't trust autozone either....and i would say you put the new one in backwards, but i sincerely doubt that happened.

After that, a huge long shot, your ignition switch has gone haywire. I don't think i've ever heard of it cranking, but no fuel/spark with a bad switch...but anything is possible. Give it the wiggle next time

Next, are you 100% sure that the wiring to the Coil itself is good? And that the coil is good? Again, long shots, but it is possible.

Since you haven't had it shut off while driving, i sincerely doubt a bum ECU, but check all the wiring around it, make sure nothing got burnt up etc....Replugging it in, may have pushed a wire back in to contact etc....then with road bumps and all that, it eventually fell apart. The priming thing

I'd throw MAF out the window, can try starting with it unplugged, but i doubt it sincerely to be the issue.

[bergmjs]

be 100% sure on the cam sensor...that's almost exactly how it was for me...the contacts were dirty (the connector f*cking melted...) so i rigged it back in. best 100$ i ever spent was on a new bosch...And i sat there cranking going WTF why won't it start and never smelled gas, but found pressure at the rail. No code for it after the connector fell apart, and the plug was completely disconnected even....So the no-code is misleading on it.
I just don't trust autozone either....and i would say you put the new one in backwards, but i sincerely doubt that happened.

After that, a huge long shot, your ignition switch has gone haywire. I don't think i've ever heard of it cranking, but no fuel/spark with a bad switch...but anything is possible. Give it the wiggle next time

Next, are you 100% sure that the wiring to the Coil itself is good? And that the coil is good? Again, long shots, but it is possible.

Since you haven't had it shut off while driving, i sincerely doubt a bum ECU, but check all the wiring around it, make sure nothing got burnt up etc....Replugging it in, may have pushed a wire back in to contact etc....then with road bumps and all that, it eventually fell apart. The priming thing

I'd throw MAF out the window, can try starting with it unplugged, but i doubt it sincerely to be the issue.

I ordered a new Bosch cam sensor today because the Autozone $150 china junk just didn't satisfy me in ruling it out. I already tried wiggling the key while cranking and smacking the hell out of the steering column while cranking, nothing.

All the electronics related to the coil are good because the car runs perfectly if you can get it started. I took apart the ECU box and cleaned everything with the connectors and inspected it, looked good. I also doubt the ECU is dead since it runs fine once started.

And so now I'm stuck waiting for FCP to ship my Bosch cam sensor I guess. This ought to be a fun few days getting to work and back =/

[bergmjs]

New Bosch cam sensor came, installed it and the car started the first time, just like every other attempt. Drove it around to charge the battery back up, then tried to restart it and same symptoms. It seems that it always starts on the first attempt of the day. Think it could be a thermal issue with a relay or something? Someone pleeeeassseee help me

[T5BLACKattack]

I have dealt with this problem before. As of right now, we have chased down to actual injector wiring harness. Check voltage and such. Or if you have the time, pull off the fuel rail. Put cardboard under the fuel rail and have someone crack the car.. check for efficient flow. I have seen this on 2 occasions now, and it seems to be injector wiring.

[Bah]

I'm just gonna throw things out there that i've heard/read....

Missing bolts/untightened to the engine/tranny apparently has caused an issue like this for one guy....Worth checking out..

The Main Fuel Relay(I'm guessing this is the fuel injector relay..) - You hear it click on, BUT, it might weaken when you turn it off and not be fully closing the second time you try to start....I would further investigate it tbh, since it sounds like it can potentially cause no sparks too..Which must mean it sends a signal to the ECU.

your a manual swap - If it's ARD tune it's a manual tune right, therefore anything PNP should be out the window, right?

ECT - It's possible and it's happened before...but i think it would be a little more obvious(even a code at this point)....but just to make sure, the temp gauge gets to the proper spot etc?

Idk how OBDI is on the turbos, but A2 and A6 , all checked right again?

Ignition Switch - Tried jiggling, but, try jiggling it more? lol..

[bergmjs]

Talked to Lucky and he's stumped on it too. He said injectors depend on spark and spark ONLY depends on cam and crank timing to start. All other sensors are trims on it. What that means is any issue with the injector harness or injector relay should not affect spark.

As for the injector harness or checking for flow, there is no flow, at all. The injectors aren't firing, at all, none of them. BUT on the off chance it does start, it never ever stumbles, so if it were bad wiring somewhere, it would most likely cause a stumble while running.

I've ordered an M4.4 upgrade from Lucky to see if the ECU has something funky going on inside of it.

[T5BLACKattack]

Try this.. do your regular morning start. then when it is a no start. unplug all injectors, pull engine ecu, and wait 1 min. re-install everything. It sounds odd but give it a shot, it has worked for us in our diagnoses.

[bergmjs]

Try this.. do your regular morning start. then when it is a no start. unplug all injectors, pull engine ecu, and wait 1 min. re-install everything. It sounds odd but give it a shot, it has worked for us in our diagnoses.

Doesn't explain no spark.

[bergmjs]

Ok, so I was out driving it to charge the battery up during one of the times that it did start. I was going up a hill in 2nd gear, 4k rpm, 15psi of boost and whizzz-BANG the turbo popped with a big smoke plume. Shaft in the turbo snapped on the cold side right behind the compressor wheel, so the wheel was just bouncing around inside. Checked for compression on all cylinders, still good. What the hell makes a turbo axle snap like that?

Fast forward to today, I bought a junkyard 16T off ebay and installed it. Car started right up, a whole bunch of oil smoke for the first few miles that I drove it. I also noticed a really high pitched whining noise whenever I jabbed the throttle a little. I left the wastegate that came with it on it and it's evidently bad since it can't build any boost. I'm pretty sure the high pitched noise is the turbo. Could oil starvation have caused the first turbo to snap and now causing this whine? I can't imagine how my oil passaged would be clogged though, I change my oil religiously every 5k with Mobil 1 Full Synth high mileage.

So anywho, back to the original problem, I decided to replace the main fuel injection relay with a brand new KAE unit from FCP, same problem of no starting.

Here's a list of everything replaced within the past 2 weeks because of this no-start problem:
Crank Sensor
Cam Sensor
Main Fuel Injection Relay
ECU (M4.4 upgrade from Lucky)
Ignition Switch
MAF Sensor
Fuel Pump


The problems actually started getting a lot worse when I put the new junkyard fuel pump in, but I don't see how that could possibly cause my symptoms. I still have good pressure at the rail.

I'm starting to get really frustrated since I need my car to be reliable to get to work. I love my car and I don't want to do it, but if I have to, I'm going to have to replace it with something reliable. I don't know what else to do, any suggestions would be great.

[bergmjs]

I put the coil in and it doesn't seem to have an effect. When there is spark, it fires up instantly, but when there isn't, it just keeps turning over.

I followed this troubleshooting guide: http://www.justanswe...rk-replace.html

And got up to where you need a breakout box. The only bad thing I found was the ignition control signal was only ~0.3 volts, where it should be at 0.7-1.3v. I have already replaced EVERYTHING involved with the ignition system. What the hell else is there to try? I'm missing the control signal for the coil, but the two sensors that generate that control signal are brand new and the ECU that interprets those sensors is also new tested by Lucky.

[volvoguy23]

I would throw in a factory computer, new fuel relay and new cts.....obviously no one likes throwing parts at a car but thats what i would do. The fuel relay and the ctp will cause this sort of problem and theres not always dtc codes.