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On 11/6/2017 at 5:15 AM, flyfishing3 said:

Boy is that factual, why is it only men?

 

women  have mental issues also 

 

 

The first mass school shooting was in San Diego by a 16 year old girl, armed with a .22 rifle.  However, you're not wrong... it seems to be disproportionately men.

On 2/27/2018 at 5:10 PM, flyfishing3 said:

I've been going back and forth plenty, just over text.

my wife is a teacher.  Arming teachers is not the answer.  

 

 

This is going to probably shock you, but I actually really really agree with you here.  I, too, work in education at the district/admin level.  My take on this is probably a little different, even though some of my co-workers believe certain teachers should be trained and conceal a weapon.

No offense to your wife or any other teachers, but they have way too much else to pay attention to than to worry about a weapon in their coat/bag/purse/locker/safe etc.  That, and some of my teachers are small or even tiny.  Lastly, as an IT person, I constantly have to deal with teachers and their lack of respect for security.  If the had a tiny gun safe in their classroom, some teacher is going to put a sticky note with the combination to it on the side, I promise you.

That being said, I think the signs on the door of ever school stating that it's a gun free zone ends up with a shooter knowing he's not going to encounter resistance, and thus makes the school a "soft target."   Which sucks.

 

My plan would to be train and conceal carry only certain support staff that are typically not in a classroom or at least aren't classroom based.  This prevents introducing a weapon into a classroom that is just sitting all the time.  Plus, to be honest, if something were to go down, the select few should only be backing up the school resource officer if they can.  I feel teachers would not understand that working as a team mentality.  First responders do not tend to victims... they are to stop the shooter, and I don't see teachers being able to step over a bleeding student in time of crisis, personally.  That is not a knock, it's because their hearts are bigger than mine.

 

Lastly, we had a retired police chief give a wonderful talk to our staff yesterday.  He is trained and has many certifications on dealing with school shooters, and now what they are calling "open air shooters."  He went through statistics and helped myself staff realize just how rare this happens per capita, but that we should have a plan.  He also told us that our lockdown plan was going to get people killed, which I've felt personally all along.  The best part was when he encouraged a plan to fight in addition to locking down, and seeing the look on administrator's faces.  The biggest thing he proposed to our staff, I felt, was building their confidence.

I'm not saying we should expect everyone to fight, because the reality of many people I've trained with in boxing and muay thai is that the natural reaction to getting hit in the face is that you don't want to do that anymore.  My suspicion is that the same likely exists here.   However, seeing the teachers feel confident, I bet the students would see that too and feel confident in day to day life as well.  

 

Apologies for coming back to this thread.  :)

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I consult on this with several counties and I can tell you the answer here is simple and if you disagree you are just plain wrong... I seldom say that but.

 

First armed teacher is a solution if done right. 

1. CCW/CCP does not get you ability to carry. Training such as armed pilots program would need to be done. This course is 2 full weeks and done very close to FLETC standard. IF teachers wanted to do this let them. Its a positive. I doubt may will do it though and PAT would disqualify most.

2. No teacher should be carrying. PERIOD. Weapons need to be secured in classroom. Even with trained personnel weapon retention is a major concern. LOCK EM UP. The containers also need to be alarmed back to admin. If one is accessed admin is notified. Keeps accountability in place and assures response is notified of not only needed action, but also location. 

3. Same as class G style license. Mandatory 8 hour recert once a year.

 

Lots of other solutions but money is always an issue. The two above items would have almost no financial impact to tax payers. 

 

Other solution is is for local LEO to put an annex at schools and garrison admin, proc servers, reservist whatever there. 

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Erin almost said the exact same thing about putting a small Leo base on campuses.   My kids school has one building off campus, but rest are on 1property.

 

my school was so large it was 30+ minute drive between them.  I grad with close to 1,000 kids. 

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 FFDOs have more training than 90% of cops. Either way. While tragic this is not a problem. Kids are more likely to be killed by their parents than a school shooter. 

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Even LEOs failed to respond properly this time, and I'm sure it's not the only time. Can we really expect "trained" personnel on site to do any better?

More importantly, and I seldom say this but Che you are just plain wrong, dumping more weapons into the soup is not just wrong it is absurd.  Regardless of who is carrying them.

So let's see first we arm/protect/harden the schools, then maybe the next soft target so every public event (concerts, sports, parks, etc), then the next ... Feed the beast or starve it, which makes more sense?

It's admirable to suggest ways to curb school shootings, unfortunately that kind of thinking is going after a symptom not the pathology.  Go for the bigger picture. the comment about kids being killed by their parents gets closer to the underlying issue. The issue is gun violence. Let's get rid of gun violence by pitting it against gun violence? I think not.

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I never said it was the answer. I said it would bandaid these situations which are not even really a problem. The real issue here is cultural. No one wants to address that though, and even if we did it would take generations. The only way to stop some weeaboo virgin with a gun and entitlement problem is by force. 

 

As for LEO response, it was technically correct by FDLE SOPs. Cops have no obligation to save your ass per Gonzales v. US Supream Court. Schools are high collateral and beat cops do not have the weapon systems or training to engage properly. 

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We also need to keep in mind how small the percentage chance this would actually happen really is.  

That being said, I know of schools that have ridiculous security systems, with door/window/video monitors and controls that pipe back to the principle office, the admin building and the local police department.  I believe they paid 400K per campus to do that, but all you are doing is spending money to "feel safe."  

 

You can dream about securing a firearm in the classroom... but the inmates will find a way.  That, and now you're going to see an increase in school burglaries to gain access to these weapons.  I have campuses that don't even have an alarm.  

 

Also, erikv11 is right.  We have a wonderful LEO dedicated to our district... but our schools are rural and up to 12 miles apart.  One person can't be all places at one time.

What I really hope I don't see is some kind of bullshit TSA move for schools.  We don't need people with tasers and metal detectors works every door of a school for minimum wage.  That's just a whole bunch of other problems.  Not to mention kids will end up going to schools that quite literally feel like prison.

 

I'm against sacrificing freedom for security.  Fuck that noise.

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32 minutes ago, Commander Riker said:

I'm against sacrificing freedom for security.  Fuck that noise.

Give everyone gun. Let it sort itself out. 

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14 minutes ago, Che'_Moderator said:

Give everyone gun. Let it sort itself out. 

Ummm hello, we're doing that right now.

1 hour ago, Che'_Moderator said:

I never said it was the answer. I said it would bandaid these situations which are not even really a problem. The real issue here is cultural. No one wants to address that though, and even if we did it would take generations. The only way to stop some weeaboo virgin with a gun and entitlement problem is by force. 

 

As for LEO response, it was technically correct by FDLE SOPs. Cops have no obligation to save your ass per Gonzales v. US Supream Court. Schools are high collateral and beat cops do not have the weapon systems or training to engage properly. 

Fair enough on the first point.

Common ground on the second, I agree.

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People seem to also not take into account the population explosion over the last 60 years.

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1 hour ago, Commander Riker said:

People seem to also not take into account the population explosion over the last 60 years.

By people I think you mean Mike :biggrin:

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But c'mon, hopefully people don't really think school shootings are the only ones that count?  As mentioned, the problem is gun violence. School shootings are a symptom.  

If you want to think about numbers of shootings look at something like http://www.gunviolencearchive.org.  We are two months into 2018, and the USA is sitting at 9000 incidents, 2400 deaths, 4000 injuries. 

For more shooting rates fun facts consider  https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/15/586014065/deaths-from-gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world .  The good news is, the death rate by violent shooting in the US is still less than in Iraq!  Unfortunately however, the rate in US is twice as high or higher than places like Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Pakistan. etc. etc. lots of good company there.  Or maybe we should pat ourselves on the back for still having a lower rate than El Salvador, even though we are the undisputed champion of the world in guns per capita (https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html).

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Throw out suicide. Now look at violent gun crime. It’s at a 50 year low *1. Of if you want to be fair look at murder rates. Yes ours is screaming high by guns but lower than average as a whole. I mean who’s gonna use a bat when guns are everywhere!

 

*1

https://goo.gl/images/c3fpJk

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I'm not saying this lessens the tradedgy of what people have experienced in modern shootings, but I believe it's important to gain perspective.  This was almost 100 years ago : 

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1927-bombing-remains-americas-deadliest-school-massacre-180963355/

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