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I was actually told that these billet wheels are designed to operate at higher pressures (25-30 psi). I know someone making 407bhp on 30 psi on this turbo.

I at around 18 psi and already at 90% IDC. Do you have a larger fuel pump? I think mine may be running out.

I have a walbro fuelpump installed.

My max IDC is about 73% 90% around 6000 RPM with an AFR of 11.4 (wich is somewhat to low, I know).

Yes, I had high hopes with this billet wheel too. Seems a little dissapointing sofar, but it is to soon to tell.

Could be that it can still flow more air, but not with these high pressures.

The 19T certainly can not sustain a pressure higher then 1.4 bar, the most, above 6000RPM , but let's be realistic .....the turbo is just too small for that.

I have do do more tests to see what the effect of it will be.

Edited by Piet
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The conditions will never be equal. Even if you has the same car, same mileage, same gas from the same gas station, there will be differences. All sensors, resistors, transistors all have acceptable tollerances. + - 5-10% fuel trims are with-in normal parameters. Thats why p0171,p0172 dont set till about + - 25%, thats outside of the normal range.

Agreed that specific adjustments to precisely match your exact setup is the best. It will run the best and smoothest. But on a massed produced car, there will be a wide tolerance range

I'm actually wondering if I should check this now, or wait till I get the greens

Rod

Agreed!!

But with good calibrated injectors the car feels definitely different, much smoother.

It really is worth the effort.

Edited by Piet
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You are missing the point.

Up until we (my son and I) came up with a solid method (at least we are convinced it's solid) to determine constant and latency everybody assumed you could calculate the injector constant by dividing 315 by the given flow rate of the new injectors and assumed that latency wouldn't have much infuence at partial load.

You did too. You even tried my values to see if it would work for you too.

No one thought that the constant would differ that much from the calculated value, you didn't either when I reread your posts.

So I don't know were your remark "I think knowing what we know nowadays, that is not a surprise I think." came from honestly.

It sure was a surprise to me.

Of course one batch of injectors could differ van another batch but not that much.

Railpressure has to differ a lot to explain the differences.

Clearly there are conditions that causes this differences in parameters but wich conditions they are isn't that obvious.

But what I'am trying to say with this is that, contrary to the MAF conversions we found, you cannot just copy injectorparameters.

You have to use the calibration method to determine which parameters work best for you.

Please don't misunderstand me.

What I mean is that thank to you and your son (there's no doubt about it!) with the knowledge we currently have (i.e. inj constant and latency values are related to each other etc etc) and knowing of course the base conditions may vary from vehicle to vehicle, we will likely always end up with dif values.

Notwithstanding, your first green values have worked great for you (as far as I know) and also for me. Until I had this fueling issue I had similar trims to you using those values.

There's nothing wrong about trying each other values.

I think there are so many variables to take into account, even engine wear may play some role on how mixture is burned.

I have a walbro fuelpump installed.

My max IDC is about 73% with an AFR of 11.4 (wich is somewhat to low, I know).

Yes, I had high hopes with this billet wheel too. Seems a little dissapointing sofar, but it is to soon to tell.

Could be that it can still flow more air, but not with these high pressures.

The 19T certainly can not sustain a pressure higher then 1.4 bar, the most, above 6000RPM , but let's be realistic .....the turbo is just too small for that.

I have do do more tests to see what the effect of it will be.

How much are you flowing with 1.4bar?

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You are missing the point.

Up until we (my son and I) came up with a solid method (at least we are convinced it's solid) to determine constant and latency everybody assumed you could calculate the injector constant by dividing 315 by the given flow rate of the new injectors and assumed that latency wouldn't have much infuence at partial load.

You did too. You even tried my values to see if it would work for you too.

No one thought that the constant would differ that much from the calculated value, you didn't either when I reread your posts.

So I don't know were your remark "I think knowing what we know nowadays, that is not a surprise I think." came from honestly.

It sure was a surprise to me.

One thing thats obvious, we are slowly getting this all figured out.

Many thanks to TMM9, Simply, Mercuric (where ever you are?), Piet and Venderbroeck, and others for all the hard work put into this.

Very much appreciated!!

Without access to the engineers at Bosch, we have to figure it out the hard way. :D

Rod

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I was actually told that these billet wheels are designed to operate at higher pressures (25-30 psi). I know someone making 407bhp on 30 psi on this turbo.

I at around 18 psi and already at 90% IDC. Do you have a larger fuel pump? I think mine may be running out.

Surely that wasn't a 19T?

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Well said. I would also like to give my thanks TMM9, Simply, Mercuric (Please come back), Piet, Venderbroeck, rkam and others for all the hard work put into this. Without this, I would have probably kept my sanity as I wouldn't have been tinkering with my car which has drove me crazy.

Switched the WB and Pressure sensor. Look a little better, still a bit on the rich side. Logworks, Tunerpro and the gauge all have the same reading. I will have to be happy with what Ive got and go do some proper logging.
WBOPswitch1.jpg

WBOPswitch.jpg

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I know this is a completely off-topic question but regarding "missing" persons where the hell has been JCviggen? His last entry was in November...

I know he's not so involved in this volvo world anymore but...

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Well said. I would also like to give my thanks TMM9, Simply, Mercuric (Please come back), Piet, Venderbroeck, rkam and others for all the hard work put into this. Without this, I would have probably kept my sanity as I wouldn't have been tinkering with my car which has drove me crazy.Switched the WB and Pressure sensor. Look a little better, still a bit on the rich side. Logworks, Tunerpro and the gauge all have the same reading. I will have to be happy with what Ive got and go do some proper logging.

Strange... values are still on the rich side.

Maybe you have to try a free air calibration.

Last time I had contact with Jan (jcviggen) he was living in Moscow Russia as a photographer, but that's already some time ago.

He was playing with an audi rs6 instead of a volvo at that time.

Edited by Piet
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Last time I had contact with Jan (jcviggen) he was living in Moscow Russia as a photographer, but that's already some time ago.

He was playing with an audi rs6 instead of a volvo at that time.

Thank you Piet. I've talked to him last year but then he never shown up again so I wonder what's going on. I hope he survived in the crazy russian traffic :arob:

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Strange... values are still on the rich side.

Maybe you have to try a free air calibration.

I calibrated it before fitting, Will try it again tomorrow. It may be reading correct and the stock lambda could be at fault causing the slight richness, it is 17 years old. We will see what happens after the calibration.

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..

It"s interesting to see that no one get's exactly the same injector values for fueltrims round zero.

Piet: Constant 0,8203 Latency 0.487

Razorx: Constant 0.8125 Latency 0.605

Simly Volvo: Constant 0.7891 Latency 0.546

All three with greens and new fuelfilters.

..

My fuel trims tended to crawl away form zero with the values I used. So my values are not final.

My constant should be close to Simply Volvo's maybe a single bit (literally) lower.

But this is for tomorrow. Work is keeping me away from my car.

Edited by razorx
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Did a run with boost up to 1.7 bar (wich by the way the 19T can not sustain, boost drops to 1.5 at rpm higher then 6000).

With this, temperatures after the intercooler raises to 73 degr Celsius and EGT up tp 980 degr Celsius.

Preliminary conclusion is that, as expected 1.7 bar (25 psi) is to high a pressure for a 19T.

I am going to lower the pressure step by step to find out what the optimum boost is. The boost where powerloss due to heating of the inletair temperature equals the powergain.

Note:

I have an upgraded 50 mm alu intercooler, i'am wondering how much there is to be gained with an air to water intercooler.

Pressure drop is lower with these things making the turbo work less hard for a pressure of 1.7 bar and maybe they are more efficient in lowering the air temperature.

Nice data gathering. What was your ambient temp - in other words - what is your 'approach' - the number of degrees at the throttle body over ambient?

I would say that the high EGT's and potential for much higher cylinder temps due to reversion are a significant issue with the small hotsides on the Volvo turbines. The problem is exaggerated when you install a larger compressor wheel relative to the impeller, at higher rpms. I believe that was the main cause of my piston failure on my old setup.

I really believe now that is is wiser to run a larger turbo at lower boost than to try and push the envelope of one of the smaller turbos. Evidence of that is pretty clear in the minimal knock I see on my setup, compared to the old.

EDIT: Still haven't tried the new method for calibration, this is my current trim:

IdleRev2e-05-09_zps33a7f966.png

I believe the PL trim is at zero ONLY because I did quite a few miles today in local road driving - normally I only drive on the highway, with maybe a few minutes max on local road settings...

Warmup has improved since I raised the warmup map 10%, vs the old method of reducing (significantly) the table values

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Nice data gathering. What was your ambient temp - in other words - what is your 'approach' - the number of degrees at the throttle body over ambient?

about 55 degr. Celsius

I would say that the high EGT's and potential for much higher cylinder temps due to reversion are a significant issue with the small hotsides on the Volvo turbines. The problem is exaggerated when you install a larger compressor wheel relative to the impeller, at higher rpms. I believe that was the main cause of my piston failure on my old setup.

I really believe now that is is wiser to run a larger turbo at lower boost than to try and push the envelope of one of the smaller turbos. Evidence of that is pretty clear in the minimal knock I see on my setup, compared to the old.

Yes I agree, you are absolutely right.

I like the 19T for it fast spool up at lower revs. This makes the car very swift in the really very crowded traffic in the Netherlands. It's not really my intention to use it at these high pressures. I'am only pushing it to the limits like this now to investigate (mainly out of curiousity) what it's boundaries are and which pressures are still safe for daily use.

For now the 19T will do. If I want some more oempf at higher revs the next step for me would be a GTX2863R for this car with which I would keep fast spool up and flexibility in the daily busy traffic. With more driving space I would go bigger, something like a GTX3071R

EDIT: Still haven't tried the new method for calibration, this is my current trim:

I believe the PL trim is at zero ONLY because I did quite a few miles today in local road driving - normally I only drive on the highway, with maybe a few minutes max on local road settings...

Your fuel trims are just fine.

Would be nice to see if there's some improvement that can be achieved though.

Warmup has improved since I raised the warmup map 10%, vs the old method of reducing (significantly) the table values

Interesting effect.

Edited by Piet
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I did some further investigation on the fuel trim behaviour. Not to get my fuel trims perfect, but more to get a better understanding

About my optimal values: Quite close to Simply Volvo's.

More important is the behaviour. Wrongly I assumed that the dead times or latency affect mainly the low load/speed part. The contrary is the fact

Running on high revs, the latency constant even has a major influence on the AFR. More than running on low revs. Illustrated in a sketch, it looks like this.

2014051101.jpg

(Left is low speed right is high speed.)

This indicates how important it is to tune the AFR's with the right speed. I also have to empathise that a constant speed during a long time is essential.

The reason that I keep hammering on these values: It does not matter if you have a stable fuel trim of -5%, low and high speed. That is sort of acceptible..

A floating fuel trim is a problem. On high load your car will use the last remembered fuel trim value. So your AFR's will be sort of random.

OK. When you have a stable fuel trim on high and low load, you can go to the next step.

Getting a stable and precise low AFR immediately on load. It is possible.

Adapt the VE, I prefer to call it the AFR map,, works a lot easier. 14.7/VE=AFR. Sort of.

Use your logging and your brains and adapt the values in this map, by looking at each mismatch with your desired AFR. The interesting values are above 4ms load and 3000RPM.

Results of the latter are nice. A much more precise reaction of the car to your throttle.

Edited by razorx
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