Tuners Rejoice! Free Tuning For M4.4!

[Vykis199009]

47 minutes ago, Piet said:

The  problem  is that with cold air you need significant less boost to achieve the load requested.

When you have the LDR routines turned off the boost with cold winterair will be as high as the boost necessary to achieve your requested load during the summer.

Ergo during winter your boost and with that your load will be too high for certain RPM’s crossing the point where knock begins. 

The fact that the the intake air is colder won’t (fully) compensate for that.

 

If someone wants make a tune leaving the LDR routines off... well ... I really don’t say that’s a wrong way to tune per se,  it’s just a choice one makes.

 

In fact I find Boxman’s way of tuning: 

“with ldr off, record load, and then build load target table”

not that bad at all ....on the contrary!

But leaving the LDR routines off after that I’am much less enthousiastic about.

 

 

What I oppose against is the conclusion that the LDR routines would’nt be able to control a larger turbo, because that’s simply not true.

They absolutely can, but for that you have to tune your load request the right way.

Which by the way isn’t that complicated at all.

You just have to bring your load request in sync with what the turbo can deliver while spooling up.

 

 

okay, got it. going to order mac boost solenoid then. now, what about afr mod, logs screenshots, not many floating around, still can`t decide is it worth with semi-big turbo

[Boxman]

I appreciate your detailed posts Piet, but I think you're misinterpreting my words;

6 hours ago, Piet said:

You make it sound like the LDR routines are giving big problems with everybody,  experiencing problematic boost overshoot.

I simply don't say that. I say "it is the sole cause of boost spikes", which is factually correct. If you're suffering from those, turning LDR off (and optionally tuning without and rebuilding your load table afterwards) is the easy fix. Show me where I say all setups are better off without LDR, and I'll gladly eat those words.

6 hours ago, Piet said:

What is going wrong here is that your load request (pink line) is way too high during spoolup of the turbo.

The ECU is trying to achieve the requested load, but the turbo cannot deliver yet. So the ECU, unaware of this, ups the TCV to 100%.

(It does this in a very short time, btw,  where you can see how fast the ldr routines really are!)

When the turbo eventually is able to spool, it does this fairly quickly as the wastegate is completely closed due to this to high a load request during spooling up.

The right way to avoid this overshoot is to balance the requested load during the spooling of the turbo with what the turbo can deliver, that is ....lowering it in this case!

And not by turning off the LDR routines altogether.

In my opinion that's a totally wrong approach of the problem you are experiencing.

Now you make it sound really easy, but that is not actually a solution for the problem. If you take a closer look at the log I posted, you'll see that in that case I floor it when already at ~3500 RPM or so. From that moment onwards it takes time to spool, and you'll get the horrible boost spike you see. However, the turbo is well capable of providing the requested load at that 3500RPM if I start my run from 2000-2500RPM - i specifically tuned it for that in the log I posted.

Simply lowering the load is not an acceptable solution as that means you're heavily limiting low-end power, while the turbo is fully capable if given time. The same thing would happen if I re-engage throttle at 4500 RPM with default LDR enabled; spooling would take a while, ECU thinks "what the heck?!", jots it up to 100 and BAM, fully unleashed turbo at 5000RPM. With small fast-spooling turbo's, definitely less of a problem. With the quick-fix of disabling LDR, you just give a fixed RPM-dependant TCV and it hits that mark straight and keeps it there. You will literally never have to worry about overshoot, but will be down on power when it's hot.

3 hours ago, Piet said:

What I oppose against is the conclusion that the LDR routines would’nt be able to control a larger turbo, because that’s simply not true.

We'll probably forever disagree on this, but it simply can't without extensive modifications such as the boostmod you guys created - you didn't make those for no reason at all, now did you? For exactly the reasons I mentioned above; spool characteristics are wildly different depending on the RPM you floor the throttle at. It will never spool instantly, not at any RPM, and it's not linear across the RPM range either. Starting from 2500RPM, it'll already be halfway spooled up at 3000 and deliver requested load at 3500, while staight up starting at 3500 will inevitably make it come up short at first. Spool characteristics will differ from gear-to-gear as well, since engine response is wildly different between those.

Spool characteristics like those cannot be compensated for with the standard LDR. You need extensive modifications (boostmod) or a quick-and-dirty fix. I even told him the drawbacks of the easy-fix and that the proper fix was available from you, so I'm really not sure what the problem is.

With large turbo's there will be a considerable risk of engine damage when left untouched if you time flooring the throttle badly. That's simply how it is, and for the sake of people's engines, especially for those who are beginning manual tuning with a non-built block, i suggest we don't make this smaller than it is.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Boxman

[Vykis199009]

okay, now i see whats could be the problem, i guess boxman tested it. load vs rpm table is not enough, at least how i think, with big turbo, to minimize overshoot. the part about floring pedal at higher rpm`s sounds about right, with slow spool turbo`s at least

[Tightmopedman9]

This LDR routine talk is exactly why I created the 'boost quickener' mod. Any time you floor it and the current load is 1.25ms (can be defined) below the target specified in the target load map the TCV is held shut and the P and I factors of the LDR routine are set to 0. When the load is within 1.24ms of the target load the LDR routine resumes. This guarantees maximum spoolup and minimal overshoot.

Regarding the MIL flash due to knock, I need to update the patch file as I made some mistakes in the code. I've reworked it and will upload a new file soon. 

[Piet]

Something similar has been developped by Maarten (Venderbroeck):

Only his mod uses  boost directly as input:

It keeps the ldr routines deactivated until a set pressure mark is reached.
This prevents the tcv duty from inflating itself to max if there's no turbo pressure at all yet.
After that it limits the tcv duty until a second set pressure is reached, again preventing the tcv duty to max out prematurely.
It almost completely eliminates the overshoot issues.

[oblark]

Hi,

I converted my 96 850 t5 from FWD to AWD last summer and instead of fitting the m58 gearbox I fitted a m66 from a diesel  xc70 with a s60r diff.

My question is can the speed limit be increased from 158 mph in the bin file ? I've tried to increase the speed in tunerpro but it won't go any higher than 158 mph. I'm able to go way above this 4th gear.

Thanks.

Edited December 20, 2017 by oblark

[German850R]

1 hour ago, oblark said:

Hi,

I converted my 96 850 t5 from FWD to AWD last summer and instead of fitting the m58 gearbox I fitted a m66 from a diesel  xc70 with a s60r diff.

My question is can the speed limit be increased from 158 mph in the bin file ? I've tried to increase the speed in tunerpro but it won't go any higher than 158 mph. I'm able to go way above this 4th gear.

Thanks.

Did you set both hard and soft limit to 255?

How does your haldex work in the 850?

[oblark]

3 hours ago, German850R said:

Did you set both hard and soft limit to 255?

How does your haldex work in the 850?

Both hard and soft limits are set to 158 in speed limit in tunerpro and won't go any higher. Both are set to 255 in parameter XDF info.

Sorry my mistake the s60r diff is in the xc70 gearbox as the diesel diff uses large drive shafts. The rear diff is from a p80 97 v70awd. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by oblark

[German850R]

If the limiter is set to 255 it means there is no limit. Therefore you already turned it off successfully.

That's what I did with mine and the fastest I have seen so far was GPS 275 on the Autobahn. Don't feel comfortable going any faster in the 850R. But I can say for sure that the 255 turned the limit off.

[oblark]

Hi,

I'e been doing some 4th and 5th gear runs and I'm getting very close to maxing out the load of 12.24ms at only 3600 rpm.

I'e got Piet's load rescaling software but the max load in tunerpro is 12.24 and won' go any higher.

How do I increase the load in tunerpro  ?

Thanks. 

[Piet]

You can’t 

It’s not tunerpro that limits the load to 12.24ms but the software (bin) of the ECU it self.

But the good news is: we’ve made a software modification that enhances the possible max load to 24.48 ms.

That should cover your needs 

[ady123]

Hello guys,

i have just some questions for u about tuning ECU motronic 4.4 of my Volvo 850 T5R 2.0l T5 155kw - in basic.

I converted my ECU from 4.3 to 4.4, i have some tunned maps about 18psi (cca 1,25 bar) -  green injectors, 19T, alu cooler,walbro hl255, complet 3" exhaust, TCV AC delco..

and i have never exceed border of 14psi (0,95 bar) the valve shut down everytime  , i tested everything what i know, do u have experience with this problem ? Are there

some others limiters ?

 

Thanks so much.

[razorx]

Not uncommon ady123. ;)

Please check the wastegate actuator and the CBV. They might not be 100%

[ady123]

15 minutes ago, razorx said:

Not uncommon ady123. ;)

Please check the wastegate actuator and the CBV. They might not be 100%

Sure, wastegate wasn´t new..but if i pull out pipe of TCV regulation from wastegate so i didn´t feel some different..its very similarly..may the same.

was kicked down on 1 bar..

[ady123]

20 hours ago, razorx said:

Not uncommon ady123. ;)

Please check the wastegate actuator and the CBV. They might not be 100%

So im tested 2 different actuators - worked from the other cars - still doesn´t work very good, it was the same..i still think its somewhere in ECU..

Could somebody basic map for 850 R/T5 for m4.4 ?? 

Thanks