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Hello !

If you have a bin with that mod, could you please load up an XDF and let me know if you have the same weird stuff I've mentioned before ? (LTFT set to 0, STFT to 100, Load threshold for lambda control to 12.24 and TPS angle for WOT detection=106 ?)

Regarding the dump valve, it's true that when calibrating the injectors, plugging the "command hose" (the vacuum hose) made the AFR leaner if I recall correctly (I'll check again tomorrow). I still can't wrap my head around why with the same setup, with the injector calibrator I can achieve an almost perfectly stable 14.7, but when writing the values in the "real" BIN, the AFR is 0.5-0.8 points richer than it should be (14.2-14.6 instead of 15.1)

The dump valve is pretty simple, its "main port" (bottom) is connected to the hose that goes to the upper port in the intercooler and the "command" hose (top one) to the vacuum tree at the throttle housing.

Regarding your setup, I know ECU expects somewhere around 12-15kg/h at idle. With that extra airflow and the TPS still closed (I see you mentioned pressurized MAF in the signature so I imagine the compressor sucks air outside the throttle plate ?) it might try to "reach" a cell below 0.48 load which at least in the stock map does not exist. What's your load value when engaging the compressor ?

Edited by Midnight Caller
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7 hours ago, Midnight Caller said:

Hello guys,

This is gonna be a pretty long post, so please, bare with me !

   5 years ago Piet and Venderbroek modified my bin in order to enable wideband lambda regulation and boost threshold control (I’m sure a lot of you are using his mod without issues as we speak). First version they sent me had something wrong in it because the car didn’t start, but the second modified file they sent me seemed OK.

   Since then, I banged my head against the wall to manage having a good and stable AFR to no avail.

   Current setup :

   - 2.3 T5 engine
   - S90 MAF
   - Green injectors
   - 16T turbo
   - Forge FMDV001 dump valve
   - AEM Uego wideband controller with BOSCH LSU4.9 sond, connected to rear O2 sensor (I know about the offset, I’ve rewired internally rear HO2S minus signal to ECU ground
   - Motorola Boost sensor soldered in ECU and wired to tank pressure sensor.
   - Adaptive knock disabled until everything is setup correctly

   I’ve used the injector calibrator supplied by Piet and Venderbroek and the calibration procedure in order to obtain an AFR close to 14.7. I’m using a mean value from the last 10 measurements, and I’ve also “loaded” the S90 MAF into the bin used by the injector calibrator.
   All goes well (I’ve found good values to be injector constant = 0.7109 and dead times = 0.7215) and the values reported by the injector calibrator correspond to the values on my AFR gauge, so I guess everything is wired correctly. I then dialed the values in my BIN (which was scaled with the MAF scaler we all use to adapt for the S90 MAF).

   Well, here goes the fun part. The VE MAP for the idle load (1ms) and 850rpm requests for an AFR of arounc 15.1 (value taken from TunerPro dashboard). But at idle the AFR gauge only swings from 14.2 to 14.7. The same values shows in the TunerPro dashboard (formula I use in the ADX for AFR is X*(5/256)*2+10 (5 volts, 256 bits, *2+10 used to match the AFR in the AEM UEGO datasheet). At the same time, although the AFR is richer than what's requested in the VE map, STFT is somewhere between 6 and 10 (so it's still adding fuel)

   I can’t for the love of me understand what’s going on and what’s with this difference.

   Things I’ve checked :

   - Absolutely no vacuum leaks whatsoever (intake system pressure tested at 1 bar)
   - Voltage drop between battery and fusebox measured to 90mV, so power wires are fine.

   Unfortunately I couldn’t reach neither Piet or Venderbroek to clear things up, received no response from them

   For all you guys still on the wideband and boost mod, could you please help a brother ? Here’s some things I noticed and please, be so kind and confirm if your BIN has the same values

   - At idle, MAF measures around 15kg/h (could you please confirm that is a valid value for an S90 scaled MAF? I remember around 12kg/h should be the right figure) – maybe bad MAF scaling ?

   Some differences in the wideband modded BIN to a stock BIN which I found raised myself some questions :

   - LTFT Lower limit Upper limit and Reduced upper limit are set to 0 on both banks
   - STFT Lower control range / Upper control range is set to -100 and 99.2 respectively
   - Load theshold for lambda control is set to 12.24 (all cells) in both lower and upper banks
   - TPS Angle for WOT detection is set to 106.25 in all cells

   Another weird issue I have and don’t know if it’s related:

   If, from idling, I brutaly floor the throttle, it goes perfectly to limiter and back
   If I press the pedal ever so slightly (less that 1cm of pedal travel), the engine starts revving slowly, and around 1500rpm the AFR goes to over 18 (AFR gauge out of range), the engine stutters for 2-3 seconds, then picks up and continues revving slowly up to 2500 rpm or so, and the AFR goes way back to pig rich, and then stabilizes back to 14-15 (swings). It’s very unpleasant when driving slowly and changing gears at low RPM because the car stutters as if it’s receiving no fuel. I couldn’t find any mechanical issues (it did the same thing when I had the 2.5T LPT engine)

   Really hope I’ve managed to structure this message right and you’ve read it whole.

   Help ! :)  

 

Is your issue only at idle?  Not sure if it's related but did those guys re-cal your WB mod bin for your AEM WB sensor?  I.e. this issue:

 

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Hello !

No, the issue seems to be în the whole rpm band/load. I mentioned them at that time what controller I had and the difference îs quite small and constant. I guess If they would've calibrated for Innovate or Spartan the AFR would've gone more bezerk than that...

If only I could reach one of them.

Another solution would be of one of you that has It properly working and uses an AEM wired to the rear O2 could send me the BIN ?

Or maybe they will eventually show up here

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Hi,

I use the Spartan 2 together with Boch LSU 4.9.  I had a look at the logs and I got 12.6kg/h at idle. In the log you can see how the boost pressure is basically inchanged but the maf voltage gets really noisy (and AFR super rich).

I checked my WB mod and have the exact same calibration settings as you stated earlier in your post.

It is interesting that you use an "open" dumpvalve without a return hose.  All the air that is measured by the MAF will not enter the engine and the engine will therby struggle to keep AFR stable.  Can you try (as a test) to remove the dumpvale completely and plug the outlet?  MAF based injection systems needs recirculating dumpvalves to get stable AFR:s. I use this: https://images.app.goo.gl/Yx6P7H3Dxj3mHRoK9

Log for more info: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihhfsor1juxlfal/2021_01_23_Test_with_and_without_supercharger.tsv?dl=0

//  Turboforslund

Edited by Turboforslund
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Hello ! Thank you so much for confirming. I was really intrigued by the -100/+99.2 STFT values.

You are perfectly right about the dump valve, but the issues I'm fighting now are when idling.
Yes, when dumping the extra air after being in boost, extra air measured by the MAF will lead to a pig rich condition for a short time.
The issue I'm facing now is when idling or not under boost condition, the VE map cell / requested AFR is (let's say) 14.9-15 (low load, cruising, tuned for improved mileage), but the AFR gauge swings between 14.2 and 14.7.

It's this offset I don't understand where is coming from, since with the injector calibrator BIN + software I'm seeing on the PC what I'm seing on the AFR gauge (max. 0.1-0.2 difference, but mean of 10 measurements is what the gauge shows). That's with the dumpvalve in place. I will try to plug it tomorrow and see if it changes anything.
The rich condition is reflecred by the plugs (pulled them out yesterday and they were a "puffy" black (indicating a rich mixture)

I COULD compensate by further leaning the VE Map, but as Piet or Venderbroek said at that time, it wouldn't work and just lead to futher STFT being unstable.

I received my modded BIN from them in April 2016, and as I understood, in September 2016 they solved the AEM calibration issue... that's why I was asking you for a 608 BIN with wideband enabled (I also have the boost threshold mod but not sure if I'll use it in the future).

I know the wideband mod was purchased by you as it was by me, so I understand if you don't want to make it public... So please PM me if you can lend me a hand :)

Or I could send you my BIN and see if you can find a difference ? Gdog helped me with his 607 BIN and I thank him greatly, but there are differences I dont have the experience to identify :(

Thank you !!!

Edited by Midnight Caller
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When live data-logging in TunerPro, I assume you adjusted the formula for the wideband to match your AEM. This is why in the datalog, you will see the same values as the gauge. However, this formula does not change anything in the BIN, so it will use the original hard-coded venderbroeck calibration.

Internally, the ECU does not even convert to AFR. It just gets a voltage, and will target whatever voltage the ECU deems to be 14.7. So if 14.7 on the original calibration was 2.35v, but the new AFR gauge is 14.2 AFR at 2.35v, the ECU will still target 2.35v and hence 14.2 AFR. 

Regarding the dump-valve; if you want a dump-valve and do not wish to recirc it, you must use a dual-piston dump-valve, to ensure seal under vacuum and part-load. Normal dump-valves may leak under vacuum and part-load. Even if this is minor, it will still throw off AFR. You can only really run single-piston dump-valve like the FMDV001 when using absolute pressure (MAP) instead of speed density (MAF). 

If you must have Forge, they offer the FMDV004. However, I also bought the standard double-piston valve from Aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1547735346.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7b6f2c4bU44ECK&algo_pvid=908ccfa9-a389-4005-abc7-863bba5cdb24&algo_expid=908ccfa9-a389-4005-abc7-863bba5cdb24-0&btsid=2100bdd816172393149013536e9350&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_) to compare side-by-side, and quality is similar, operation is identical. Forge imo is heavily overpriced, there is nothing special about their twin piston BOV and their tuning spring prices are borderline criminal.

Regarding the bin, i've replied to your DM to see if we can frankenstein something between our bins.

Unfortunately, with your bin the easy fix of just targeting higher AFR is slightly problematic due to the VE and AFR target tables not being separate. Tightmopedman eventually implemented this in my bin and I loved the versatility it gave me to test things and to fine-tune VE to get a better open-loop response. If you want a flat AFR response, IMO the one-table-fixes-all approach is inherently flawed, as it throws the concept of a VE table out the window entirely and instead solely relies on the wideband control algorithm. Oscillations will be larger than they need to be at the point where you switch from 14.7 to 12, and all open-loop small corrections you could have been doing around your idle and part-load (or even correcting for your open BOV if you so wish) will be lost.

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4 hours ago, Boxman said:

When live data-logging in TunerPro, I assume you adjusted the formula for the wideband to match your AEM. This is why in the datalog, you will see the same values as the gauge. However, this formula does not change anything in the BIN, so it will use the original hard-coded venderbroeck calibration.

Yes, I know changing the ADX won't change the BIN. I used the formula mentioned earlier -> X*(5/256)*2+10 as per AEM Controller manual and assuming ADC is 256bits. But that's TunerPro Related environment.
The problem I mentioned is that in the injector calibrator program/bin (where I don't have any control of the ADX value conversion as it's not using TunerPro but it's a standalone executable) I can tune the injector constant + deadtime and see the same values on the AFR gauge and what's reported in the the program interface


image.thumb.png.6205887c4985f346dc8780a8adbfff22.png

image.thumb.png.74d02566bb8d75dfdf813e59dd744e80.png

That's idling condition, the MEAN AFR showed here is almost the same as the AFR on my gauge.
When I fill up these injector constant and dead times in my BIN and flash it, the offset appears.



Internally, the ECU does not even convert to AFR. It just gets a voltage, and will target whatever voltage the ECU deems to be 14.7. So if 14.7 on the original calibration was 2.35v, but the new AFR gauge is 14.2 AFR at 2.35v, the ECU will still target 2.35v and hence 14.2 AFR.

AFAIK, the ECU should take voltage at the rear O2 ADC and convert it to a value between 0 and 256 (each probably mapped to an AFR?). I don't know if there is a formula in there and if it's configurable, and that's the "calibration" we are talking about.
Regarding what voltage ECU will "target"... You said " It just gets a voltage, and will target whatever voltage the ECU deems to be 14.7". Shouldn't the ECU target what's in the VE MAP ? Or that's the first value it tries to match and then adjusts STFT to what's in the VE MAP ?

Regarding the dump-valve; if you want a dump-valve and do not wish to recirc it, you must use a dual-piston dump-valve, to ensure seal under vacuum and part-load. Normal dump-valves may leak under vacuum and part-load. Even if this is minor, it will still throw off AFR. You can only really run single-piston dump-valve like the FMDV001 when using absolute pressure (MAP) instead of speed density (MAF). 

If you must have Forge, they offer the FMDV004. However, I also bought the standard double-piston valve from Aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1547735346.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7b6f2c4bU44ECK&algo_pvid=908ccfa9-a389-4005-abc7-863bba5cdb24&algo_expid=908ccfa9-a389-4005-abc7-863bba5cdb24-0&btsid=2100bdd816172393149013536e9350&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_) to compare side-by-side, and quality is similar, operation is identical. Forge imo is heavily overpriced, there is nothing special about their twin piston BOV and their tuning spring prices are borderline criminal.

I'll rip the BOV out the hose and plug it to see if anything changes.

Regarding the bin, i've replied to your DM to see if we can frankenstein something between our bins.

Super, thank you !

Unfortunately, with your bin the easy fix of just targeting higher AFR is slightly problematic due to the VE and AFR target tables not being separate. Tightmopedman eventually implemented this in my bin and I loved the versatility it gave me to test things and to fine-tune VE to get a better open-loop response. If you want a flat AFR response, IMO the one-table-fixes-all approach is inherently flawed, as it throws the concept of a VE table out the window entirely and instead solely relies on the wideband control algorithm. Oscillations will be larger than they need to be at the point where you switch from 14.7 to 12, and all open-loop small corrections you could have been doing around your idle and part-load (or even correcting for your open BOV if you so wish) will be lost.

The open loop situation was another question I had.
I mentioned that the Load threshold for lambda control was set by Piet/venderbroek to 12.24 in the wideband mod BIN, so, as far as I see it, it should never get in open loop as 12.24 load is not reached (at least in my case)

 

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    Exactly. That's why I think maybe leaning the whole VE Map by the offset I have would "fix" this situation
I also did some aproximations regarding the dump valve. (Unfortunately I didn't have the time to take it out today, I helped a "brother" who bought an 1994 850 2.0T5 with 100.000 miles in mint condition, but one of the heater core hoses exploded on the way home. Yeeeey for April fool's :D)
    If the dump valve would leak under vacuum, that would mean that the MAF would record less air than in reality (but mine measures 14-15kg/h at idle). Furthermore, the extra unmetered air should lean the mixture, not enrichen it. If I would've had a lean condition, the dump valve could be the reason but in my case it's the other way around, the mixture is too rich, both at idle, cruising and full boost.

 

Edited by Midnight Caller
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Hi,

The turbo will always provide more airflow then what the engine consumes, also at idle.  If you measure the direction of air at the dumpvalve hose connection it will blow out.  Any measured airflow from the MAF will read more then what really enters the engine.  

It will be a interesting test!  😎

// Turboforslund

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Well, 20 minutes to take it down and 20 to put it back is not such an ordeal :)
It seems that the PCV hose was only out of the house coupling. Put it back together and was good to go.

Unfortunately that wasn't the reason if my AFR issues. I plugged the BOV, and pressure tested the intake system, no vac leaks.

Tried calibrating the injectors again, I used the injector constant and the dead times in the M44 wikia (0.7188 and dead times from the wiki).
Vac. is around -10, STFT is oscillating between -6% and 6%, MAF meters 13.8kg/h, load around 1.01.
Requested AFR from VE map is 15.1, but AFR on the gauge sweeps between 14.1 and 14.7

I removed the formula in the ADX to see what's in the ADC bits, and it oscillates between 120 and 130

If the wideband is calibrated in the BIN for 0-5V to correspond to bits 0-256, then:

5V/256bits =  0.01953125 volts/bit
The middle of the "scale" - 2.5V would correspond to bits 128 (AFR=15 on the gauge)

As I wrote earlier, I'm seing values between 120-130 in the TunerPro dash (using no formula, just "X") and 14.1-14.7 on the AFR gauge.
AFR readings on the gauge :
- 14.1 AFR on the gauge corresponds to approx 2.1V output to ECU
- 14.7 AFR on the gauge corresponds to approx 2.35V output to ECU

AFR read by ECU (shown in TunerPro) :
- 120*0.01953125 = 2.34V -> which corresponds to 14.68AFR (according to AEM UEGO manual)
- 130*0.01953125 = 2.53V -> which corresponds to 15.02AFR (according to AEM UEGO manual)

So as far as I see I'm having around 0.23V offset between what the AFR controller sends to the ECU and what the ECU translates as in bits (and reapply transformation formula back to volts).

I'm pretty sure that I tied internally (in the ECU) the (Signal -) pin of the rear O2 sensor (A19) to ECU signal ground (A18) so.... calibration problem in the BIN file ?
 

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4 hours ago, Midnight Caller said:

Well, 20 minutes to take it down and 20 to put it back is not such an ordeal :)
It seems that the PCV hose was only out of the house coupling. Put it back together and was good to go.

Unfortunately that wasn't the reason if my AFR issues. I plugged the BOV, and pressure tested the intake system, no vac leaks.

Tried calibrating the injectors again, I used the injector constant and the dead times in the M44 wikia (0.7188 and dead times from the wiki).
Vac. is around -10, STFT is oscillating between -6% and 6%, MAF meters 13.8kg/h, load around 1.01.
Requested AFR from VE map is 15.1, but AFR on the gauge sweeps between 14.1 and 14.7

I removed the formula in the ADX to see what's in the ADC bits, and it oscillates between 120 and 130

If the wideband is calibrated in the BIN for 0-5V to correspond to bits 0-256, then:

5V/256bits =  0.01953125 volts/bit
The middle of the "scale" - 2.5V would correspond to bits 128 (AFR=15 on the gauge)

As I wrote earlier, I'm seing values between 120-130 in the TunerPro dash (using no formula, just "X") and 14.1-14.7 on the AFR gauge.
AFR readings on the gauge :
- 14.1 AFR on the gauge corresponds to approx 2.1V output to ECU
- 14.7 AFR on the gauge corresponds to approx 2.35V output to ECU

AFR read by ECU (shown in TunerPro) :
- 120*0.01953125 = 2.34V -> which corresponds to 14.68AFR (according to AEM UEGO manual)
- 130*0.01953125 = 2.53V -> which corresponds to 15.02AFR (according to AEM UEGO manual)

So as far as I see I'm having around 0.23V offset between what the AFR controller sends to the ECU and what the ECU translates as in bits (and reapply transformation formula back to volts).

I'm pretty sure that I tied internally (in the ECU) the (Signal -) pin of the rear O2 sensor (A19) to ECU signal ground (A18) so.... calibration problem in the BIN file ?
 

What pin/input is your wideband connected to?

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