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audiobox

1979 244DL No Start Problem

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OK, I'm stumped.  Fuel line & control pressure are good (76/34 psi).  Lambda Sond system checks out (frequency valve buzzing, ohms ok, all voltages on controller plug ok), new O2 sensor.  Spark ok on each spark plug.  Cold start injector sprays.  Throttle body, flame trap cleaned.  Air filter, fuel filter changed.  Air flow disk centered and at level spec.  All grounds & connector contacts (everywhere) cleaned.  Fuel pump hot & ground wiring replaced with 10 ga.

TDC was checked with dowel and as seen in pics, cam pulley notch lines up with cam cover notch, aux gear (oil pump/distributer gear) is lined up with belt mark (no pic) and crank pulley notch lines up with block mark.  Remanufactured distro's rotor is just before #1 plug wire.

However, when cranking, only a slight "huff huff huff" is heard.  Although admittedly not at idle speed when cranking, the timing light shows #1 firing about an inch before the top lower belt, or approx. 135 degrees retarded.

"Dammit Jim, I'm not a mechanic, I'm an audio engineer!"  I've gone as far as logic, Chilton, the green books and Bentley can take me.  I'm hoping the deep experience on this forum can help with suggestions.


Back story:  Car ran great for six years through upper midwest extremes.  Choked to a stop one morning.  Towed to a "performance shop" that had worked on the car before.  They said gunk in the tank had clogged the in-tank pump sock and the pump had burned out and taken the pump relay with it.  Replaced pump with new pump & sock from IPD + relay.  Shop then said it needed a new aux air valve.  Replaced that and it would start, but it would die under load.  They told me it was a bad engine design and they were done it.  I managed to get it home by revving it in low and doing two blocks at a time.  The main pump was complaining loudly, so I replaced that, but no joy and low (18/38 psi) control & line pressures.

Thinking the problem must be downstream, I replaced the fuel filter, blew out the lines, had the WUR and fuel dist re-built, etc. etc.  In the end, it turned out the in-tank pump from IPD had impressive flow, but not sufficient psi for the main pump.  Installed new in-tank pump = all fuel pressure specs good.  Oddly, now it wouldn't start at all.  I wanted to make sure the timing was correct, so I replaced the timing belt and tensioner, distro, cap/rotor and coil.  Nope.  Also swapped an ICU from a salvage pull.  No change.

Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated!

Note: the 1979 244 DL doesn't have a MAF, crank sensor, throttle switch, Hall sensor or IAC.  The engine is a B21F-5 with K-Jetronic.

CAM-TIMING-MARK.jpg

CRANK-POSITION.jpg

FLYWHEEL-POSITION.jpg

ROTOR-POSITION.jpg

Reluctor-Installed.jpg

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Timing light mark points to timing issue.

Plug wire order has been verified as correct?

If so and timing is so far off that you can't adjust the distributor to correct then either timing belt setup (which includes the belt and gears) is off somewhere (like maybe the roll pin for the cam or aux shaft is sheared, pull gears off to verify) or the ICU or the distributor is having a bad day.  Have seen a 740 that would literally only run backwards until the distributor was swapped out, it would crank in the right direction then suddenly jump backwards when it fired up.

Verify first two cam lobes are in V formation when timing marks lined up, should be able to see this through oil cap.  Make sure the boot between the throttle body and air flow plate is not out of position or loose anywhere.

 

One of the first quick tests I always rely on is the disable the fuel pumps and use starting spray in the bottom of the air flow sensor or inside the air box cover, or carb spray put though a vacuum port nipple.  If it tries to start and run (will run if you keep spraying carb cleaner), at least you know the odds are the ignition system and valve timing are in good order, and you can focus on fuel injection issues.  But if you get nothing, then I'd focus on the ignition and valve timing until it did respond.

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A far as it being a bad engine design, it's far from it, the Volvo brand became an common household name because of this engine, terribly lame excuse for not fixing the fault..  And '79-80 were IMO consistently the most powerful unmodified 240s (non turbo) I've driven (way back then).

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On 11/6/2016 at 7:34 PM, audiobox said:


Back story:  Car ran great for six years through upper midwest extremes.  Choked to a stop one morning.  Towed to a "performance shop" that had worked on the car before.  They said gunk in the tank had clogged the in-tank pump sock and the pump had burned out and taken the pump relay with it.  Replaced pump with new pump & sock from IPD + relay.  Shop then said it needed a new aux air valve.  Replaced that and it would start, but it would die under load.  They told me it was a bad engine design and they were done it.  I managed to get it home by revving it in low and doing two blocks at a time.  The main pump was complaining loudly, so I replaced that, but no joy and low (18/38 psi) control & line pressures.

Thinking the problem must be downstream,

 

 

I want to start with when it just died (quoting your back story) .  You freaked and replaced things yourself and may have made matters worse like timing issues etc. as suggested. However remember engines are like people we need to breathe,eat and expel. Motors need air, fuel and exhaust. Looking at your pressures I'm thinking you still have a fuel delivery issue. You can jump terminals 30 and 87 on the pump relay putting the pump in a running loop. Then pull the injectors out of the intake hooked up ,remove the intake boot, take a pair of pliers and pull up on the throttle plate and inspect the spray pattern of the injectors.

Kjet was a good system just not understood. You need to find a tech/garage with some old school import guys(hard find but they still exist)

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On 11/8/2016 at 3:12 PM, Three Fat Tigers said:

Timing light mark points to timing issue.

Plug wire order has been verified as correct?

If so and timing is so far off that you can't adjust the distributor to correct then either timing belt setup (which includes the belt and gears) is off somewhere (like maybe the roll pin for the cam or aux shaft is sheared, pull gears off to verify) or the ICU or the distributor is having a bad day.  Have seen a 740 that would literally only run backwards until the distributor was swapped out, it would crank in the right direction then suddenly jump backwards when it fired up.

Verify first two cam lobes are in V formation when timing marks lined up, should be able to see this through oil cap.  Make sure the boot between the throttle body and air flow plate is not out of position or loose anywhere.

 

One of the first quick tests I always rely on is the disable the fuel pumps and use starting spray in the bottom of the air flow sensor or inside the air box cover, or carb spray put though a vacuum port nipple.  If it tries to start and run (will run if you keep spraying carb cleaner), at least you know the odds are the ignition system and valve timing are in good order, and you can focus on fuel injection issues.  But if you get nothing, then I'd focus on the ignition and valve timing until it did respond.

Although my auto-mechanical ignorence is vast, a timing issue is also my guess by process of elimination.  Plug wire order is correct.  I verified the cam lobes with the valve cover off.  The pictures above show component positions at TDC after installing a timing belt & tensioner.  I replaced the belt because the symptoms pointed to timing and I wanted to make absolutely sure the crank/cam indexing was correct.  Although I did carefully line the aux gear up with the belt mark, that's largely relative since the distro can be positioned by sliding down onto the oil pump gear that's driven by the aux gear, no?  An alert forum poster spotted that my reluctor indexing was off and I installed a new one (last picture).  Did I mess up the original reluctor?  Was it bogus on the reman distro I installed?  Who knows, but now it's correct.

With the reluctor corrected and cranking the engine with the starter, the timing for #1 is showing at 3:00 retarded, rather than 4:00 retarded as described in my original post.

Naturally, I'm loath to pull the belt (again) and gears, but a sheared roll pin (I haven't checked to see if there are roll pins) is certainly possible if a pin sheared and then the gear wedged in a fixed location.  That would account for the off, but unmoving timing mark.  I've swapped the ICU with a salvage pull and the symptoms don't change.  The symptoms with the reman distro are the same as they were with the old distro.

I checked the boot with bare fingers and a dental mirror today and it and the compression bands are spot on.

I tried the starter spray trick and no dice.  Fuel control and line pressure is correct and starter injector functions. 

I agree with your call.  With all mechanical timing position indicators A-OK, but #1 showing spark pulse at 3:00 retarded, something exotiic is definately whack with the timing.  Although logic and process of elimination only work if you have every possible element to be eliminated on your list, I'm thinking "sheared roll pin" is about the only dark corner left.  I'll hit the green books and tear into it next week sometime.

"A far as it being a bad engine design, it's far from it, the Volvo brand became an common household name because of this engine, terribly lame excuse for not fixing the fault..

And '79-80 were IMO consistently the most powerful unmodified 240s (non turbo) I've driven (way back then)."

I felt sorry for the head mechanic at that moment, because it was such a pathetic blame shift.  Here's a shop with a dyno and a rep and they're so used to reading codes and popping in something from a box, they've lost their brain power diagnostics.  Tsk tsk.

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On 11/11/2016 at 6:47 PM, MrWinkey said:

I want to start with when it just died (quoting your back story) .  You freaked and replaced things yourself and may have made matters worse like timing issues etc. as suggested. However remember engines are like people we need to breathe,eat and expel. Motors need air, fuel and exhaust. Looking at your pressures I'm thinking you still have a fuel delivery issue. You can jump terminals 30 and 87 on the pump relay putting the pump in a running loop. Then pull the injectors out of the intake hooked up ,remove the intake boot, take a pair of pliers and pull up on the throttle plate and inspect the spray pattern of the injectors.

Kjet was a good system just not understood. You need to find a tech/garage with some old school import guys(hard find but they still exist)

"You freaked and replaced things yourself and may have made matters worse like timing issues etc."

No argument there.  The "performance shop" and I made the same error when they replaced the aux. air valve and fuel pump relay and I replaced the main pump and had the fuel pressure regulator and fuel distro rebuilt. They and I took it on faith that the new in-tank pump from IPD was up to OEM spec.  But it wasn't.  No specs listed at IPD.  The pump showed a good visual rate of flow, but didn't have enough psi to feed the main pump.  The fuel pressure line/control readings I posted (76/34 psi) were inital readings and were climbing.  It was oviously in-spec after being obviously out of spec and I needed to use available time to put the top of the engine back on, so I didn't let it roll to see what the stabilized peak readings were going to be.

I plan on pulling the injectors (once I have the correct o-rings) and checking spray patterns, but I think I'd better get the timing straight first.

I appreciate your input.

"Kjet was a good system just not understood. You need to find a tech/garage with some old school import guys(hard find but they still exist"

That would be great.  Portland, OR?  No problem.  Fort Wayne, IN?  Ain't a FordChevyToyotaHonda.

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