141 replies to this topic

[Slater]

What do you mean the IPD is seperate pieces? You mean the bushing? Yeah - it's a seperate poly bushing they include with the bar because 1. you can't vulcanize poly to metal and 2. vulcanized bushings is dumb and is the crappiest bandaid fix I've ever seen and 3. poly bushings are used for decreased deflection - rubber does not unless it's a hard rubber (higher durometer number). But all rubber deteriorates, so poly is far superior.

- Slater

I take it that my description doesnt make sense heheh

If you have the Ipd Front bar, on the bar there are two washerlike things (Stronger of course) that are welded onto the bar. These are welded where the outer(maybe its inner, i forget) edges of where the new poly bushings are to go. After installing the bushings, which are aligned up to the "washers" on the bar and with the subframe of the car, you attach the "d-clamps" to hold the bushing DOWN onto the subframe with the swaybar. BUT.. the "washers" keep the bar from moving sideways (left to right motion). when the "d clamps" are down, they hold the bushings DOWN in place... but the bushings are not 100% holding the bar itself in place. to the hand, it probably wont move much... but the car's weight shifts, I would believe to make the bar move sideways (if not much but a little give, which defeats the effects of a "anti - sway" bar (hope that decribes a good picture)

now... on the other hand. the STOCK bar, has vulcanized rubber in "d clamps". since its volcanized, the bar will not move sideways while the bushings stay in place... the vulcanized bushings will allow the sway bar to actually do its work, since there is no "slip" of the bar and bushing contact. Upon the removal of the vulcanized bushing, there will be NO "washer" like things (as the ipd does) that will hold the NEW bushing in its place from any SIDEWAYS motion. The bushing will be held onto the frame with the "d clamps", and will have a good torque on the swaybar... but sideways motion will still be pissble given the right amount of force.

*takes a deep breath* whew... ok.. that better make sense this time heheh otherwise I have to get my butt under the car to take pictures to illustrate

So in conclusion... somehow, your kit would require something be done to the stock bar to keep it from moving left/right in the secured down bushings that are on the subframe. The bushings wont move.. but the bar will/may slip left/right given the right force

Yeah, those are common on some aftermarket bars. I've seen them, although they are not necesaary in most cases.

I could include that in a kit, although a slight bit of side to side sliding does not affect a sway bar - they work by torsion (twisting motion).

And you think just because the bushing is vulcanized it does not move? Sure it does - it has to! The bar HAS to be able to twist inside of the sway bar freely. If it can twist that means it is not attaced to the bar and can therefore move side to side slightly. I saw evidence of this on my stock front sway bar - you can see where the dirt and grime buildup stops because it is gettig rubbed by the bushing.

[GShyneDM]

Yeah, those are common on some aftermarket bars. I've seen them, although they are not necesaary in most cases.

I could include that in a kit, although a slight bit of side to side sliding does not affect a sway bar - they work by torsion (twisting motion).

And you think just because the bushing is vulcanized it does not move? Sure it does - it has to! The bar HAS to be able to twist inside of the sway bar freely. If it can twist that means it is not attaced to the bar and can therefore move side to side slightly. I saw evidence of this on my stock front sway bar - you can see where the dirt and grime buildup stops because it is gettig rubbed by the bushing.

I didnt think the vulcanized part that was attached to the bar would move.. i think its the flex of the rubber in the "Dclamp". The outermost rubber would still be able to flex a bit within the clamp since that Outer part of the rubber is the furthest away from the central vulcanization TO the bar. So in terms, the bar isnt moving inside the bushing... its the bushing that is flexing, that is stuck to the bar.

I didnt know if the bar would move left/right significantly... but having a stop of some sort might stiffen things up just a tad more in high load cornering of these beastly heavy machines

Edited by GShyneDM, 04 April 2005 - 11:41 PM.

[Slater]

Yeah, those are common on some aftermarket bars. I've seen them, although they are not necesaary in most cases.

I could include that in a kit, although a slight bit of side to side sliding does not affect a sway bar - they work by torsion (twisting motion).

And you think just because the bushing is vulcanized it does not move? Sure it does - it has to! The bar HAS to be able to twist inside of the sway bar freely. If it can twist that means it is not attaced to the bar and can therefore move side to side slightly. I saw evidence of this on my stock front sway bar - you can see where the dirt and grime buildup stops because it is gettig rubbed by the bushing.

I didnt think the vulcanized part that was attached to the bar would move.. i think its the flex of the rubber in the "Dclamp". The outermost rubber would still be able to flex a bit within the clamp since that Outer part of the rubber is the furthest away from the central vulcanization TO the bar. So in terms, the bar isnt moving inside the bushing... its the bushing that is flexing, that is stuck to the bar.

I didnt know if the bar would move left/right significantly... but having a stop of some sort might stiffen things up just a tad more in high load cornering of these beastly heavy machines

No way man, those bars rotate LOT (at least 90 degrees). If the bushing IS attached and DOES give that much, I SURE as heck don't want it on my car because you may as well have a wad of ABC bubble gum as your swar bay bushing.

[GShyneDM]

No way man, those bars rotate LOT (at least 90 degrees). If the bushing IS attached and DOES give that much, I SURE as heck don't want it on my car because you may as well have a wad of ABC bubble gum as your swar bay bushing.

Hrmm I think I get what you're saying.. but WOW.. i didnt know sway bars rotate that much... geez. I guess I've never seen them understress. I would think the bar would snap if it needs to rotate that much, especially since its a twisting motion, it should be equal/opposite to the left and right side's twisting.. if the right side twists one direction, the left should be twisting the opposite. right? I am not sure. Never studied/learned the whole physics of how sway bars work.

but...I dont mean the bushing itself flexing 100% of the 90 degrees plus (as you say) but... the bushing's seat IN the D clamp.

Anyways... My main point was IF you needed to add those "washer" things to help stop left/right movement, and IF you needed them, the stock bar doesnt have it, and something MAY need to be done to have the same effect that the IPD bar "washers" do on theirs.

Edited by GShyneDM, 05 April 2005 - 12:32 AM.

[Slater]

Hrmm I think I get what you're saying..  but WOW.. i didnt know sway bars rotate that much... geez.  I guess I've never seen them understress.  I would think the bar would snap if it needs to rotate that much, especially since its a twisting motion, it should be equal/opposite to the left and right side's twisting.. if the right side twists one direction, the left should be twisting the opposite.  right? I am not sure. Never studied/learned the whole physics of how sway bars work.

but...I dont mean the bushing itself  flexing 100% of the 90 degrees plus (as you say) but... the bushing's seat IN the D clamp.

This would only be the case if the bushing was round. But it's literally a "D" shape. So it can't rotate in the D clamp. The bushing is supposed to stay still and not move - the bar rotates IN the bushing.

Anyways... My main point was IF you needed to add those "washer" things to help stop left/right movement, and IF you needed them, the stock bar doesnt have it, and something MAY need to be done to have the same effect that the IPD bar "washers" do on theirs.

Yup, if I did make a kit it would be complete, overengineered, and include everything you would need.

- Slater

[mAydAy]

Very interesting stuff. As far as balance stuff, I just wanted to add I've ridden in VAVolvo's 850 N/A and had it oversteer, due to some trailbraking and the like.

-Andy

[Slater]

Very interesting stuff. As far as balance stuff, I just wanted to add I've ridden in VAVolvo's 850 N/A and had it oversteer, due to some trailbraking and the like.

-Andy

What was his setup?

[mAydAy]

1994 850GLT N/A
Removed A/C and other weight reduction
Not sure of tires but they're so-so, decent on the 15" bbs-ish wheels
Eibachs, Bilstein HD's, iPd bars, OMP brace



-Andy

[orange850t]

Don't care, and don't need to keep the front swaybar from doing the left-right shimmy. The beefed up swaybar links with the protper washers (thanks to slater) should take care of that. by the way he person who is afraid of wrenching on their bars will not give a Darn about this upgrade.

I like it, make it @250 bucks or so (not including the links) and we would probably have a deal. I don't care to bandaid my handling, I'm talking turn in folks. You can set up the corner perfect but if you flick the wheel and the car dives against you your screwed.

Drank too much, getting too pasionate about handling. Should just buy a 911 and be happy.

[Slater]

1994 850GLT N/A
Removed A/C and other weight reduction
Not sure of tires but they're so-so, decent on the 15" bbs-ish wheels
Eibachs, Bilstein HD's, iPd bars, OMP brace

-Andy

So with full IPD sways he was getting brake induced oversteer?

Turbos have more understeer due to more weight up front for the turbo stuff. That's one of the reaons why Volvo put the larger rear bar on the turbo models.

I wonder what IPD assumed when they designed their kit? Lighter N/A or front-heavier turbos? Probably the N/A. If so, with the same kit on a turbo model you will get more understeer than on an N/A using the IPD kit. If they designed it for the turbos the N/As would have less udersteer which I'll bet they didn't want.

hmmmm

- Slater

[PorBleemo]

Sorry to post a newbie question and bring this thread out of the depths of the ocean but...

...would the best combo for decreasing roll and reducing understeer on a '95 Turbo sedan be (as stated) the IPD rear and R front? And am I correct in thinking that Volvos tend to understeer, especially turbo models?

And another person said that most cars understeer because the majority of the populous can't drive properly. I'm a newbie driver (only had a license for two years) and I'm not sure if cancelling the understeer would be too dangerous. Or would I be pleasently surprised after I got used to it. I don't know very much about performance driving but am eager and willing to learn. Comments?

Thanks!

-Por

Edited by PorBleemo, 19 June 2005 - 03:23 PM.

[steve s]

use ur common sense and less understeer wouldn't be too bad.. just be careful



ipd didn't assume much... at least, no initially anyway i don't think. they had two packages when they first got the 850. sport and touring. sport: 25mm front 25mm rear. touring: 25 mm front 22 mm rear. both sets broke the rear bar. so they gave up on the 25mm rear and stuck with the 22mm rear...which as many of u know, still causes a lot of breakages..

[Slater]

Sorry to post a newbie question and bring this thread out of the depths of the ocean but...

...would the best combo for decreasing roll and reducing understeer on a '95 Turbo sedan be (as stated) the IPD rear and R front?  And am I correct in thinking that Volvos tend to understeer, especially turbo models?

And another person said that most cars understeer because the majority of the populous can't drive properly.  I'm a newbie driver (only had a license for two years) and I'm not sure if cancelling the understeer would be too dangerous.  Or would I be pleasently surprised after I got used to it.  I don't know very much about performance driving but am eager and willing to learn.  Comments?

Thanks!

-Por

Holy back from the dead thread Batman!

Your idea is close. If you want the MOST reduction in understeer it wouild be the IPD rear and BASE model front (i.e. 20mm front).

However, VMS has not released their bars yet, so the above is only true assuming they don't release a larger rear bar than IPD.

However, if you have only been driving for 2 years I would recommend installing the IPD kit as-is - IPD front AND rear bar. They are designed to work together. The mix n match approach is more for advanced chassis tuners and people with more driving experience, both on the track and off.

If you only use the IPD rear bar with the stock front bar, I am sorry to say the first time you hit some black ice or hydroplane you will more than likely be shopping for a new car.

[orange850t]

Holy back from the dead thread Batman!

Somebody knows how to use the search function.....!!!!!!!

[Slater]

So would that make the understeer drastically more noticeable?  As it is I think the car handles comfortably.

Would what make the understeer drastically more noticeable?

[Nebor]

If you only use the IPD rear bar with the stock front bar, I am sorry to say the first time you hit some black ice or hydroplane you will more than likely be shopping for a new car.

It's not the ice, or the rain that gets you. It's the light pole.

[freeskier8585]

wow, i wonder if he walked away...

[Nebor]

wow, i wonder if he walked away...

Why yes, I was just fine. Out a couple grand, and a Volvo, and plenty pissed. No injuries whatsoever.

[PorBleemo]

Would what make the understeer drastically more noticeable?

The IPD sway bars. Some people say that they will.

Why yes, I was just fine. Out a couple grand, and a Volvo, and plenty pissed. No injuries whatsoever.

Quiet you.