141 replies to this topic

[GShyneDM]

2000 s70 fwd 20 mm front, 19.5 mm rear
2000 s70 awd 20 mm front, 19.5 mm rear
2000 v70 fwd 20 mm front, 19.5 mm rear
2000 v70 awd 20 mm front, none? rear
2000 c70 20 mm front, 20 mm rear
2001 c70 20 mm front, 20 mm rear
2002 c70 coupe 23.5 mm front, 21 mm rear
2002 c70 convertible 20 mm front, 20 mm rear
2003 c70 convertible 20 mm front, 20 mm rear

Instead of reinventing the wheel and trying to find someone to make a sway bar larger than the normal stock 20 or 21mm, yet smaller than the IPD 25mm, I would suggest the C70 coupe bar if it bolts to all of the other models (I'd bet it does). It's just right in between the 2 at 23.5mm. Bet that'd be perfect.

- Slater

Boy was I under a completely wrong impression if that list is accurate.
With the 2002 coupe seemingly getting the mix right on stock from the factory..and then Volvo switched back. I wonder why...

I just went out and measured my old bars.
The front looks DEFINITELY smaller than my rear bar. maybe my eyes deceive me but
Front = approx 20mm (measured 20.3)
Rear = approx 21.5mm (measured 21.6)

1998 C70 HPT... *shrugs* I dont know what numbers to trust anymore... I think I might go out and measure my Ipd's to compare. I'll take pics in the morning when there is some light out. I really didnt think 1.5mm diameter would look as different as they did. I better check again

Edited by GShyneDM, 03 April 2005 - 06:34 AM.

[steve s]

the list was obtained from volvo literature.. and u know how sometimes that gets messed up a little.. (like 237 hp vs 240 hp for t5r/r cars..altho those two #s are listed at different rpms)... but that is afaik accurate unless someone else can give an even more detailed info..

[855tr5ed]

Good discussion on sways, however, the issue of bar size does't apply to the rear sway. Mine was broken in two on the drivers side. The "steel plate" was snaped in two at the point where the slot is cut in it. Why have a slot? Because this is actually a spring. It's made of a higher carbon steel like a spring. If you think about how the rear swing arms work in conjuction with the sway, you will see how the flat spring flexes as the arms move. Of course, I fixed mine with much scientific research and metalurgical information. I used an old lawnmower blade cut down to the same size and shape as the stock one. If you look close at the edge of the spring, you will see that is tapered in the middle. I ground it out the same and cut the slot. Mig welded at the ends, it looks like stock. Clamped in the vise, I twisted it, and it seemed to me that it was to easy to move compared to the forces it will be under. I was going to cut off the old spring, but instead welded it back together. So now, I have a rear anti sway that may be twice as stiff as stock or, more likely, somewhere inbetween. I wish that I could give a before and after comparison. The sway was probably that way when I got the car. I only noticed it after it warmed up a bit here in WI and had the windows open and the radio off. It made a nice clanking noise.

If someone wanted to do it, they could set up a test of torsional force on these sways. Make a fitting to hook up a tourque wrench and see how much force it takes to flex the spring, how far. Not very accurate, but may make a good comparision test.

Edited by 855tr5ed, 03 April 2005 - 06:39 PM.

[GShyneDM]

UPDATE:

For a 1998 C70 HPT Coupe

Stock Front = Solid 20.53mm
IPD Front = Solid 26.26mm (Seems Solid) = 267.68% or 167.68% Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula)

Stock Rear = Hollow 21.32mm
IPD Rear = Solid 22.44mm (Seems Solid) = 122.72% or 22.72% (+ Hollowness) Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula but still needing to take into account the hollow bar)

Those are my measurements & calculations for today.

Edited by GShyneDM, 04 April 2005 - 01:11 AM.

[Slater]

UPDATE:

For a 1998 C70 HPT Coupe

Stock Front = Solid 20.53mm
IPD Front = Solid 26.26mm (Seems Solid) = 267.68% or 167.68% Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula)

Stock Rear = Hollow 21.32mm
IPD Rear = Solid 22.44mm (Seems Solid) = 122.72% or 22.72% (+ Hollowness) Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula but still needing to take into account the hollow bar)

Those are my measurements & calculations for today.

How did you compute the wall thickness of the stock rear bar? You can't perform the calculation unless you account for that - it's critical.

[GShyneDM]

Stock Rear = Hollow 21.32mm
IPD Rear = Solid 22.44mm (Seems Solid) = 122.72% or 22.72% (+ Hollowness) Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula but still needing to take into account the hollow bar)

How did you compute the wall thickness of the stock rear bar? You can't perform the calculation unless you account for that - it's critical.

I havent... Which is why I made sure to note that it still needed to calculate in the holloness factor.

I dont know the formula or how thick the wall is.. so I cannot compute it. Its open for someone else to pick up if they can.

Edited by GShyneDM, 04 April 2005 - 04:30 AM.

[Slater]

Stock Rear = Hollow 21.32mm
IPD Rear = Solid 22.44mm (Seems Solid) = 122.72% or 22.72% (+ Hollowness) Stiffer
(Using Slater's formula but still needing to take into account the hollow bar)

How did you compute the wall thickness of the stock rear bar? You can't perform the calculation unless you account for that - it's critical.

I havent... Which is why I made sure to note that it still needed to calculate in the holloness factor.

I dont know the formula or how thick the wall is.. so I cannot compute it. Its open for someone else to pick up if they can.

Ah, got it.

Well, my rear sway is 22mm stock and the IPD is 22mm as well. There is a SLIGHT variation but it's due to the thickness of the paint on the sway bar so that doesn't count.

I am going to find out the wall thickness of my stock bar so stay tuned.

[donstruke]

Guys, don't dismiss the stock bar being hollow as a bad thing, I think. Someone else with much more knowledge in these matters will hopefully comment, but I'm pretty sure I've read things in the past about hollow bars and how they can actually be stiffer than solid bars if made correctly.

OK, guys, here's Sway Bar 101:
http://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/Misc/HollowSwayTech-D.pdf

[Slater]

Guys, don't dismiss the stock bar being hollow as a bad thing, I think. Someone else with much more knowledge in these matters will hopefully comment, but I'm pretty sure I've read things in the past about hollow bars and how they can actually be stiffer than solid bars if made correctly.

OK, guys, here's Sway Bar 101:
http://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/Misc/HollowSwayTech-D.pdf

Yup. Right from that article:

"Now, many misconceptions are floating around about the hollow bar designs.
One major one is: that a solid bar is stronger than a hollow one. This is only
partially correct. If a solid bar and a hollow one of the same diameter are
compared, then the solid bar is stiffer than the hollow version."

I've said it before and will repeat - the solid IPD 22mm bar is STIFFER than the stock hollow 22mm bar. Significantly stiffer. Just how much I don't know yet. It will be on the order of 200-300% stiffer beased on my guestimations. I will know for sure as soon as I measure the wall thickness of the stock bar.

- Slater

[wattsat]

Has anyone asked IPD? I'm sure they would do it. I know because they have TWO companies make the kits - one makes the front bar another makes the rear. When I talked to someone at IPD a while back they had a BUTTLOAD of rear bars but were waiting on their shipment of front bars for the kits to officially be "in stock". Anyways, I'll bet if you just ask to buy th erear bar they will sell it individually.

Yes, I called and asked them several months ago and they will not sell the rear bar only. IIRC they cited "Safety Issues". [QUOTE]

IMO the only thing their roll bar kit will do for 90% of the cars out their is to reduce the body roll. That is enough to give the impression of better performance, but without skidpad numbers, slalom times and speeds both before and after I cannot be conviced that their swaybars make any difference on a street car. Especially when replacing both at the same time.

Now, adding a stiffer Rear swaybar will definately increase oversteer and for a good driver make a big difference in handling. Which is a big reason why adding a rear swaybar is a No No for a stock SCCA SOLO II car. Front is ok because all it will do is make you push through a corner. The rear will allow you to make a nice brake tap, transfer some weight front and allow the rear to rotate in order to make a tight corner.

I probably would already have a Rear bar on my car if they sold it independantly of the front bar.

[orange850t]

[quote=wattsat,Apr 4 2005, 10:41 AM]
[quote]

I probably would already have a Rear bar on my car if they sold it independantly of the front bar.

[/quote]

Ok, Rob. Here is VMS's big chance. It seems like people are screaming for a rear bar. Take a page out of Hotchkis' book on the chevy trailblazer, a big rear bar (probably about IPD size) and a set of poly bushings for the front. People would be all over it like white on rice.

These are the threads that make Volvospeed the best.....youd never see this on SS.

EDIT: Can't believe we have 7 pages of relevant suspension talk going here

Edited by orange850t, 04 April 2005 - 02:52 PM.

[slarti]

Id be interested in sway bars from VMS if the prices were comparable to the IPD ones.

Edited by slarti, 04 April 2005 - 03:33 PM.

[Slater]

Ok, Rob.  Here is VMS's big chance.  It seems like people are screaming for a rear bar.  Take a page out of Hotchkis' book on the chevy trailblazer, a big rear bar (probably about IPD size) and a set of poly bushings for the front.  People would be all over it like white on rice.

These are the threads that make Volvospeed the best.....youd never see this on SS.

EDIT: Can't believe we have 7 pages of relevant suspension talk going here

Well, you can always buy the IPD kit, and sell the front bar. I had a bunch of people PM me wanting to buy just the front bar for some reason, so if you don't feel like waiting you can just go that route as I'm sure you'll have no problems selling the front bar.

Also, replacing the bushings on the front bar is no 10 minute job. In fact, it is a PITA just go get the bar off and back on. But add to that burning off the old bushing, cleaning the bar thoroughly, and greasing up/installing the poly and you can see this isn't a job for someone that 's afraid to turn a wrench.

However, if you want REAL handling for your car and know how to set up the suspension properly, as well as know how to DRIVE your car properly, this is the best and cheapest option out there.

- Slater

[orange850t]

Also, replacing the bushings on the front bar is no 10 minute job. In fact, it is a PITA just go get the bar off and back on. But add to that burning off the old bushing, cleaning the bar thoroughly, and greasing up/installing the poly and you can see this isn't a job for someone that 's afraid to turn a wrench.

However, if you want REAL handling for your car and know how to set up the suspension properly, as well as know how to DRIVE your car properly, this is the best and cheapest option out there.

- Slater

There is a price for everything.......

[Slater]

Also, replacing the bushings on the front bar is no 10 minute job. In fact, it is a PITA just go get the bar off and back on. But add to that burning off the old bushing, cleaning the bar thoroughly, and greasing up/installing the poly and you can see this isn't a job for someone that 's afraid to turn a wrench.

However, if you want REAL handling for your car and know how to set up the suspension properly, as well as know how to DRIVE your car properly, this is the best and cheapest option out there.

- Slater

There is a price for everything.......

I couldn't agree more. I just don't know if the average person wants to go to the trouble. But honestly, you're going to have to R&R the stock bar anyways regardless if you replace it with an IPD or reuse the stock bar with bushings. And it will only take maybe another 45 minutes to get the bushings off of the stock bar. So IMO it's worth it.

I am seriously considering making a kit that includes an IPD rear sway, poly bushings for the front, and my adjustable end links. The links can be used to fine tune the front bar for more or less oversteer depending on what size front bar you have to begin with and also what your driving/handling preference is.

Would anyone be interested?

- Slater

[GShyneDM]

I couldn't agree more. I just don't know if the average person wants to go to the trouble. But honestly, you're going to have to R&R the stock bar anyways regardless if you replace it with an IPD or reuse the stock bar with bushings. And it will only take maybe another 45 minutes to get the bushings off of the stock bar. So IMO it's worth it.

I am seriously considering making a kit that includes an IPD rear sway, poly bushings for the front, and my adjustable end links. The links can be used to fine tune the front bar for more or less oversteer depending on what size front bar you have to begin with and also what your driving/handling preference is.

Would anyone be interested?

- Slater

I wouldnt buy the kit...







just because I have 2/3rds of it already hahaha
BUT that sounds like a good idea for people who dont have anything yet.

Could I get some instruction on how to use your links to reduce understeer? Since I have the IPD Front bar...

Also... the stock baushing removal would require quite a bit of sawing and sanding to make it smooth. HOWEVER..unlike Ipd's front bars, there isnt a welded stop for the bushings. Not entirely sure of their purpose, but I assume that there may be some movement of the bar if those were not there, under exterme load. Does that make sense? Not sure if just putting new bushings would be up to the full potential if the bar is allowed to slip. The Stock bar didnt need them as the bushing was vulcanized onto the bar. but ipd's bushings are separate

Edited by GShyneDM, 04 April 2005 - 08:44 PM.

[slarti]

The kit sounds interesting what kind of cost are we taliing about here?

[Slater]

I couldn't agree more. I just don't know if the average person wants to go to the trouble. But honestly, you're going to have to R&R the stock bar anyways regardless if you replace it with an IPD or reuse the stock bar with bushings. And it will only take maybe another 45 minutes to get the bushings off of the stock bar. So IMO it's worth it.

I am seriously considering making a kit that includes an IPD rear sway, poly bushings for the front, and my adjustable end links. The links can be used to fine tune the front bar for more or less oversteer depending on what size front bar you have to begin with and also what your driving/handling preference is.

Would anyone be interested?

- Slater

I wouldnt buy the kit...







just because I have 2/3rds of it already hahaha
BUT that sounds like a good idea for people who dont have anything yet.

Could I get some instruction on how to use your links to reduce understeer? Since I have the IPD Front bar...

Also... the stock baushing removal would require quite a bit of sawing and sanding to make it smooth. HOWEVER..unlike Ipd's front bars, there isnt a welded stop for the bushings. Not entirely sure of their purpose, but I assume that there may be some movement of the bar if those were not there, under exterme load. Does that make sense? Not sure if just putting new bushings would be up to the full potential if the bar is allowed to slip. The Stock bar didnt need them as the bushing was vulcanized onto the bar. but ipd's bushings are separate

Well, as others have said you can't buy just the IPD rear bar.

Also, the adjustment instructions are included with the links.

I looked carefully at my front bar while I was replacing the control arm. All I saw was a crappy rubber bushing vulcanized right to the bar. No metal stops - are you sure you're not talking about the straps of metal that goes over the bushing and bolts on eitehr side of the sway bar - that's called the d-bracket. That would all get replaced.

Also, not sure what you're talking about with the whole slipping bar and IPD's bushings being seperate.

Every sway bar in the world just has a standard D-shaped bushing that goes around the bar (that's split so you can slip it over the bar), and a steel d-bracket to bolt it to the frame/steering rack/etc.

What do you mean the IPD is seperate pieces? You mean the bushing? Yeah - it's a seperate poly bushing they include with the bar because 1. you can't vulcanize poly to metal and 2. vulcanized bushings is dumb and is the crappiest bandaid fix I've ever seen and 3. poly bushings are used for decreased deflection - rubber does not unless it's a hard rubber (higher durometer number). But all rubber deteriorates, so poly is far superior.

- Slater

[dancetheman]

i'd be in on that kit
i hate understeer...it's scary

[GShyneDM]

What do you mean the IPD is seperate pieces? You mean the bushing? Yeah - it's a seperate poly bushing they include with the bar because 1. you can't vulcanize poly to metal and 2. vulcanized bushings is ghey and is the crappiest bandaid fix I've ever seen and 3. poly bushings are used for decreased deflection - rubber does not unless it's a hard rubber (higher durometer number). But all rubber deteriorates, so poly is far superior.

- Slater

I take it that my description doesnt make sense heheh

If you have the Ipd Front bar, on the bar there are two washerlike things (Stronger of course) that are welded onto the bar. These are welded where the outer(maybe its inner, i forget) edges of where the new poly bushings are to go. After installing the bushings, which are aligned up to the "washers" on the bar and with the subframe of the car, you attach the "d-clamps" to hold the bushing DOWN onto the subframe with the swaybar. BUT.. the "washers" keep the bar from moving sideways (left to right motion). when the "d clamps" are down, they hold the bushings DOWN in place... but the bushings are not 100% holding the bar itself in place. to the hand, it probably wont move much... but the car's weight shifts, I would believe to make the bar move sideways (if not much but a little give, which defeats the effects of a "anti - sway" bar (hope that decribes a good picture)

now... on the other hand. the STOCK bar, has vulcanized rubber in "d clamps". since its volcanized, the bar will not move sideways while the bushings stay in place... the vulcanized bushings will allow the sway bar to actually do its work, since there is no "slip" of the bar and bushing contact. Upon the removal of the vulcanized bushing, there will be NO "washer" like things (as the ipd does) that will hold the NEW bushing in its place from any SIDEWAYS motion. The bushing will be held onto the frame with the "d clamps", and will have a good torque on the swaybar... but sideways motion will still be pissble given the right amount of force.

*takes a deep breath* whew... ok.. that better make sense this time heheh otherwise I have to get my butt under the car to take pictures to illustrate

So in conclusion... somehow, your kit would require something be done to the stock bar to keep it from moving left/right in the secured down bushings that are on the subframe. The bushings wont move.. but the bar will/may slip left/right given the right force

I dont know if it really makes much of a difference... but it seems to serve some purpose *Shrugs* Other sway bars dont seem to have a "washer" like thing... but then those arent paralell to the left/right movement of the car, or there really isnt any place for the bar to go once its in the bushing

Edited by GShyneDM, 04 April 2005 - 11:24 PM.