42 replies to this topic

[ZTY S70]

Question about the amount of belt tensioners on an S70?

I thought there was only one and it was replaced within 6 months ago along with my timing belt. I have had good service with this dealership. I'm not going to name names at this point, but the experience I had this week was unsettling.

At the last service around 6 months and 3k miles ago (@ 69k miles), the dealership deserves a thumbs up because they replaced the engine mount per my extended third party warranty. I originally took it in for timing belt service and to fix the mysterious noise at start up which sounds like a groaning/moaning dog that wails as more stick/gas is applied - it occurs for 2-3 minutes at cold start up only and happens EVERY time. If for example, I turn off the car and restart it after its been warmed up (within a couple hours), the mysterious noise does not happen.

But the one problem that was significant and was not fixed was the COLD START UP mystery noise that comes on for 2-3 minutes. It was quoted as a "Loud Noise Under Hood at Cold Start Up".... the dealer apparently "tested and inspected" and found a faulty code leading to the air pump, replaced that along with other pipes and such to a tune of about $400.00. The timing belt was also replaced along with the belt tensioner (singular) that I paid out of my own pocket.

The mysterious noise was the air pump according to the dealer as they inspected and diagnosed it that way - and it should've been fixed - but it wasn't.

Thankfully, it was covered under warranty.

So ----- 6 months later and without my third party warranty safety (warranty from dealership for repairs is 12 months though), I was tired of the cold start up noise and brought it back in, actually was inspired to bring it back in when a passenger asked "what is that noise?" which was rather embarrassing.

The dealer kept it over night so they could start it up cold and hear the noise. And I got a loaner car - a 2005 S60 2.5 low pressure turbo - 211hp.

CALL 1:
I got a call the next morning that the problem was confirmed: 'Unfortunately not the air pump but two (2) belt tensioners." I asked, confused, "but hasn't the belt tensioner been replaced?" He stated that the belt tensioner has not been replaced. I looked at my receipt and saw that the belt tensioner was replaced in relation to the timing belt (I paid for it and the labor) just 3,000 miles ago so I replied that the belt tensioner was replaced with the timing belt on the last service as it stated on the receipt. "Let me check the receipt and get back to you."

CALL 2:
"In fact, the belt tensioner was replaced. But the problem isn't the belt tensioner, it's a couple of the bearings." What? "Yes, the technician says the noise is coming from somewhere under the timing cover. It looks like its going to cost you in the area of $550.00."

Confused and unsure of exactly what the problem that was going to extort me of $550.00, I replied, "What exactly is the source of the problem and do you know exactly what the problem is?" A couple seconds, "No, I do not know exactly where the noise is coming from." How can I approve of the work or estimate when the dealer service tech cannot confirm the problem source? I was hoping for a bit of understanding and the dealer did, offered that they'd take care of labor if the problem was related to the belt tensioner. "OK, I'm going to call you after I talk to the service manager."

CALL 3:
The tech has confirmed that it's a number of bearings. "If you will pay for the parts, we'll take care of ALL THE LABOR." "Are you confirmed that this is the problem? If that's the case, then it sounds fair," I said. Dealership service replies, "It'll be around $230.00, is this okay with you?" I said "Yes, I trust you. This sounds fair. Just confirm that this will fix the problem - this is the problem right? And it will be repaired at the estimate?" The dealer confirmed, yes. We'll find out this coming Monday.

I suppose the only numbing part is that the problem is now being fixed, again, and I am basically paying twice for something that should've been fixed the first time. The dealership is a really great dealership, I've had years of reliable service, it was just this last occasion that gave me an uneasy feeling.

So my question is how many belt tensioners are there? Do the bearings create such a noise? Do the parts for bearings cost $230.00?

I remember buying German made ABEC-5 bearings for my rollerblades and a set of 8 cost me $30.00. These probably aren't the same bearings but I'm just looking for some perspective here. Any help, suggestions, comments would be appreciated!

Thank you for your time.

[Bay13]

The first problem is that your first noise and then your second noise are not the same noise at least not what was found by the tech. The only way to avoid things like this is to have you demonstrate the noise that you are concerned with. If I find a noise an fix it, it may very well not be the noise that you are concerned about. I can't count how many times this has happen, and I don't know how many times The dealer refuses to have the customer verify the noise while the tech is there. Some times it is obvious but sometimes like your case it is not obvious at all. It is something that just needs to be worked out between you and the dealer, and it sounds like they are going half way.

[nedro018]

I had the same problem you describe, a noticeable "roar" coming from near the timing belt cover. I knew it was a bearing loose bearing sound, but there's ALOT of bearings over there (tensioners, idler pullys, alt, PS pump, etc). I could've sworn the noise was the PS pump. But the only way to T-S was to disco the serp accessory belt and spins all the bearings, one at a time. Sure enough, the idler pulley bearing made a sound like roller skate bearings with noise oil...everything else was quite. That was it. I changed the tensioner as well for good measure.

[ZTY S70]

Hi Nedro, thanks for the feedback.

Do you have an estimate as to what the parts cost for the bearing idler pulley bearing? Is it related to the tensioner/timing belt? What mileage did it occur? I'm at 7X,XXX miles.

I had the same problem you describe, a noticeable "roar" coming from near the timing belt cover.  I knew it was a bearing loose bearing sound, but there's ALOT of bearings over there (tensioners, idler pullys, alt, PS pump, etc).  I could've sworn the noise was the PS pump.  But the only way to T-S was to disco the serp accessory belt and spins all the bearings, one at a time.  Sure enough, the idler pulley bearing made a sound like roller skate bearings with noise oil...everything else was quite.  That was it.  I changed the tensioner as well for good measure.

[ZTY S70]

OK - got the car back. Here's the final outcome (for now):

Brought the car in April 7th. Got it back today, a week later (5 business days).

Brought it in as: LOUD UNUSUAL NOISE COMING FROM ENGINE BAY AT COLD START UP. NOISE GETS LOUDER THE HARDER THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS DEPRESSED.

The dealer (service), like Bay 13 noted, met me half way considering the problem was reported, was paid for (in a 70k service. including timing belt, that came out to $1279.07 total), and claimed to be fixed 6 months ago by same.

This time, the parts replaced:

- Timing Belt Idler Pulley
- Timing Belt Tensioner Bearing
- Exterior Idler Pulley

The noise didn't go away after replacing above, and they then replaced:

- Oil thermostat Housing

They asked for confirmation that this noise happens 99% of all cold-start ups, and it only happens for 2-3 minutes. Subsequent warm start-ups are absent of any noise. I confirmed, yes.

This morning, the dealer started up and checked - there was no noise found. I went in, dropped off the loaner car and paid $251.43 for the servicing to get rid of, once and for all, the start-up noise.

Total breakdown: $33.60 idler roller, $96.13 idler roller, $102.54 tension pulley

As I pull out of the dealership parking lot and give it a bit of gas, the familar noise surfaces, not as loud but still unusual and still there!

I'm going to confirm on tomorrow mornings cold-start up. This start-up noise issue could drive me potentially bonkers.

[Searay Jim]

OK - got the car back. Here's the final outcome (for now):

Brought the car in April 7th. Got it back today, a week later (5 business days).

Brought it in as: LOUD UNUSUAL NOISE COMING FROM ENGINE BAY AT COLD START UP. NOISE GETS LOUDER THE HARDER THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS DEPRESSED.

The dealer (service), like Bay 13 noted, met me half way considering the problem was reported, was paid for (in a 70k service. including timing  belt, that came out to $1279.07 total), and claimed to be fixed 6 months ago by same.

This time, the parts replaced:

- Timing Belt Idler Pulley
- Timing Belt Tensioner Bearing
- Exterior Idler Pulley

The noise didn't go away after replacing above, and they then replaced:

- Oil thermostat Housing

They asked for confirmation that this noise happens 99% of all cold-start ups, and it only happens for 2-3 minutes. Subsequent warm start-ups are absent of any noise. I confirmed, yes.

This morning, the dealer started up and checked - there was no noise found. I went in, dropped off the loaner car and paid $251.43 for the servicing to get rid of, once and for all, the start-up noise.

Total breakdown: $33.60 idler roller, $96.13 idler roller, $102.54 tension pulley

As I pull out of the dealership parking lot and give it a bit of gas, the familar noise surfaces, not as loud but still unusual and still there!

I'm going to confirm on tomorrow mornings cold-start up. This start-up noise issue could drive me potentially bonkers.   

I can't believe this topic came up right now. I just came in to post a quesiton, searched and found this. You are singing my song!!!!

'98 S70 GLT with 76k miles. I replaced the air pump 2 days ago convinced by the dealer over a year ago that the cold start up noise was the air pump starting to go. They DID keep it overnight and heard the noise and confirmed. I replaced the SAS valve a few months ago hoping it would do the trick and stop it from throwing SAS codes. No go. So I broke down and bought an air pump and replaced it. It's getting warmer now but yesterday AM I started it up to check and it was quiet and so far no more codes! I was happy....until this morning!

This morning I start it up, take off down the street and sure enough, the same dang howling noise is there, just like always; same one, not a new one or another one. As usual, about 2 minutes later, like the flip of a switch, it's gone. Talk about frustrated!!!!

Dealer replaced the timing belt as well as serp belt less than a year ago when we had a ton of stuff done.

Let me know what you find. I guess my next move is starting it with the hood open and have someone rev the motor and see where it's coming from. It sounds like your dealer threw parts at it, but form what you describe, it's identical to what our '98 is doing!!! I was going to start with looking for what else is activated during cold exaust temps etc.....anything that was turned on/of with a cold engine and on/off when water or exhaust temps came up. It's like a switch when it stops howling!!

We're selling the car and the air pump and the 2nd wheel hub was all we needed to do. And I pulled the 2nd wheel hub to find it felt OK. The drivers side was obviously shot. I was kind of hacked that we spent another $450 on parts that really didn't need to be replaced and we still have that dang cold start up howling!!

by the way, I used the instruction on Bay 13 for both the 2 wheel hubs and the SAS and air pump. Big kudo's!!! It made it so much easier and extermely helpful! I learned from the 1st one that axle nuts pop right off with a little PB Blaster and a few minutes later hit them with a torch for a minute or so. Hit it with an ELECTRIC impact and it broke them loose! 1st one I let sit overnight and bent a 1/2" breaker bar up like a pretzle using a 5' cheater pipe. This time I just sprayed, heated, popped it off! Thank you!!

Edited by Searay Jim, 15 April 2005 - 05:40 PM.

[ZTY S70]

Hey, good call.

Yeah, it amazed me that the Volvo dealership couldn't confirm exactly. They did "inspect and test and confirm" the noise - doing the above work to it. That's the conclusion for now! I don't think you and I are alone here.

[Ben H]

Hey!

I had and still have the same problem.

At first they said it was my PS pump.got the replaced and it helped...but there is still something else makeing the cold start up roar....NOOO FUN

can the berrings be lubed anyhow? or must they be replaced?

Ben

[ZTY S70]

Hi Ben,

If you read my situation, you'll find out that the bearings were replaced and they did not help in my case. The replacement did help another VS forum member as he stated.

The bearing or bearings might have been the 'fix' according to the dealership but I am still getting noise! Funny that the noise has morphed in some ways. The only real way to determine if we are all getting the same noise is to hear it for ourselves - that's going to be difficult, heh.

Tomorrow, I am going to try my third cold startup and see if the noise is still showing its ugly face around.

"Throw parts at it..." ---- that's a good line.

Lastly, the dealership service rep last said on the phone, "if the noise does not go away, a last resort would be the oil pump." Does that ring a bell? Does a bad oil pump make a sustained, audibly unusuallly loud groaning/howling noise?

[Searay Jim]

I tried to listen to mine Saturday morning, but it was warmer outside and the noise only lasted about 1 minute, and it wasn't near as loud.

Best I could tell, I couldn't tell where it came from!!! It was really odd, it was there, but I couldn't find a good direction, which makes me feel like it's under or at the lower side of the motor somewhere.

A bearing just doesn'[t set right with me, simply because of the way it stops like a switch was flipped. The colder it is, the louder and longer it lasts, but even in the 30's, it's gone in 3-4 minutes.

Oil pump huh?? I dn't even want to go there but, oil temp would come up some, that quick. I don't assume they have something functioning as an oil t-stat that's opening when temp starts to rise, or something like that? (I'm stretching)

[Searay Jim]

FYI, not only is mine still howling on cold start up, it just threw a %^$@*&% code again!! Same thing, sitting at a light in drive. P401 Air Injection code. I can't believe I've now thrown $400 in parts at this friggen emmisions crap and that wasn't it. I'm glad I didn't let the dealer take $900 from me to do it like they wanted to.

[ZTY S70]

OK, so third cold start-up results post-repair (dealership).

Environment temperature in Northern California East Bay - sunny, blue skies, total spring weather - 64 degrees - 11am.

Turn over, hear the noise come alive, then calm at idle, the noise settles, quieter than before.

Drive out onto the street and accelerate slowly, 2000 rpm, noise is there and climbs with acceleration and RPM's, however, the howling has been suppressed. The noise has been reduced and the howling was not found. This result differs from the previous two cold start ups.

And about 1.5 mile down the road, the noise disappears completely.

[Searay Jim]

OK, so third cold start-up results post-repair (dealership).

Environment temperature in Northern California East Bay - sunny, blue skies, total spring weather - 64 degrees - 11am.

Turn over, hear the noise come alive, then calm at idle, the noise settles, quieter than before.

Drive out onto the street and accelerate slowly, 2000 rpm, noise is there and climbs with acceleration and RPM's, however, the howling has been suppressed. The noise has been reduced and the howling was not found. This result differs from the previous two cold start ups.

And about 1.5 mile down the road, the noise disappears completely.

Seems similar to mine. 1500-2000 RPM is where it seems to start to get going real good. Temps are similar here now so it's less howling than when cooler, and it quits much quicker.

Do you know if they replaced the relay when they replaced the air pump and SAS valve? '98 is appearently the only year the relay isn't on the pump, and it's said that has to be replaced when the pump is. I'm wondering if there is a relay problem and the pump is coming on, but the valve is staying closed so it's blowing under pressure and no where for the air to go. Wonder if that pressure is causing the pump to howl or whine, and throw codes?

[Bay13]

Lastly, the dealership service rep last said on the phone, "if the noise does not go away, a last resort would be the oil pump." Does that ring a bell? Does a bad oil pump make a sustained, audibly unusuallly loud groaning/howling noise?

the oil check valve on the cooling lines needs to be checked to see if it's the source of the noise. The red arrow is pointing to it. There is a valve/pressure spring in there that could make noise that would go away as the car warms up.

[ZTY S70]

Searay - regarding the air pump, they did not replace the relay. They replaced the air pump and a number of hoses.

Bay 13 - Thank you for the photo and the suggestion. I'll print it out.

This morning on the fourth try, in Berkeley, at 64 degrees in the morning, I started up the car and drove up the street, the roar/howling was back, wildly as ever, neighbors on the side of the street looking up as you pass by, just as it was before I brought the car into the dealership. After a number of stop signs, the noise, of course, went away.

I know the dealership worked on my car and threw parts at it and did the "best" they could on finding the solution. But it didn't work and I was told the noise was gone and fixed and I was charged. Tedious as it will be, I'm going to have to work something out with the dealership now because I paid $250 to have this noise removed (for a second unsuccessful time).

the oil check valve on the cooling lines needs to be checked to see if it's the source of the noise. The red arrow is pointing to it.  There is a valve/pressure spring in there that could make noise that would go away as the car warms up.

[Searay Jim]

TTT

ZTY S70, any more news? Mine's still howling.......

[Searay Jim]

Hi there,

I confirmed with Bay 13 and the Volvo dealership replaced the oil thermostat which is in the photo with the big red arrow (bay 13 provided)... the dealership heard lines "resonating in the oil cooler lines" ... the problem and howling is STILL there, though it's not as consistent since the dealership fixed the things it fixed. In terms of consistency, instead of 99% of the time, it's 90% of the time, and instead of 2 minutes straight, it's sometimes 10 seconds and then abrubtly goes away.

I almost dropped my car off at the dealership last night so I could go there today and take the service rep for a test spin on a cold start-up.

One problem. Two dealership services replacing a handful of parts. Total expenses: +/- $700.00.

Do you think it would be wrong of me to demand a refund for the services provided since the dealership has not rid the noise yet?

Jeez, my opinion is yes and it's only right, to a point, but unfortunatly I doubt you'll get very far.

It's unbelievable that this can be such a PITA to track down. It's consistant in occurance, duration and in what and how it does it. You'd think thee would only be limited things that would have events triggered like that.

Well, my only good news is that the CEL hasn't happened again but I don't have my hopes up to high yet. And of course, it's still running great as usual.

[ZTY S70]

Jeez, my opinion is yes and it's only right, to a point, but unfortunatly I doubt you'll get very far.

You were right - I didn't get very far at all despite my efforts to prove that the problem that I've paid to have fixed twice has not been.

Left my car there overnight and I went back to dealership the next day to take my service advisor for a spin. The noise was there, evident as ever. I asked if he heard it. He gave me a blank look and said he didn't hear anything. The noise became even more prevalent as I test drove it around the block at around 1-2k RPM's. Service advisor thought it was a "wheel bearing at $400 for the front left and right." After explaining and showing him why it couldn't be the wheel bearing, I asked for any solution to this inconclusive situation.

"The service manager's wallet is closed on this. If we take it back, we'll have to open a new invoice with a new estimate on the repair." Third time's a charm does not apply to this case. Final conclusion, the cold start-up noise and groaning for on the '98 Volvo S70 T5 is unsolvable by the dealership, myself and with the current resources.