42 replies to this topic

[Searay Jim]

You were right - I didn't get very far at all despite my efforts to prove that the problem that I've paid to have fixed twice has not been.

Left my car there overnight and I went back to dealership the next day to take my service advisor for a spin. The noise was there, evident as ever. I asked if he heard it. He gave me a blank look and said he didn't hear anything. The noise became even more prevalent as I test drove it around the block at around 1-2k RPM's. Service advisor thought it was a "wheel bearing at $400 for the front left and right." After explaining and showing him why it couldn't be the wheel bearing, I asked for any solution to this inconclusive situation.

"The service manager's wallet is closed on this. If we take it back, we'll have to open a new invoice with a new estimate on the repair." Third time's a charm does not apply to this case. Final conclusion, the cold start-up noise and groaning for on the '98 Volvo S70 T5 is unsolvable by the dealership, myself and with the current resources. 

Front wheel bearing??? OMG they are reaching now!! And $400 for both fronts? I dont' think so. Dealer quoted us $510 for "one". FCP has the Volvo kit (wheel hub and bolts and axle nut) for $150 each. I just did both of mine. Drivers side was shot and you could tell. It's not anything like this howl.....I mean at all in any way.

Well, I guess I'm going to live with it until we sell which I hope is soon. Mines running great and so far still has not thrown the CEL and I've noticed the exhaust is not rich smelling like it was so maybe the air pump and all is working now. Time to make her shine and find her a new home!

[KLS]

Good thought about the oil valve. I've had oil pressure valves and oil check valves on industrial machinery make odd noises when the wear was extremely small, but just out of spec. (What wear...it is in oil all the time??? It wears.)

Too bad is wasn't the cure in this case. I've spent many, many hours and days chasing noises that telegraph themselves just about everywhere. As Rich said, there may very well be more than one noise occurring at the same time, and finding the right one is a detective job.


Ken

Edited by KLS, 05 May 2005 - 06:38 PM.

[mko]

Searay - regarding the air pump, they did not replace the relay. They replaced the air pump and a number of hoses.

Bay 13 - Thank you for the photo and the suggestion. I'll print it out.

This morning on the fourth try, in Berkeley, at 64 degrees in the morning, I started up the car and drove up the street, the roar/howling was back, wildly as ever, neighbors on the side of the street looking up as you pass by, just as it was before I brought the car into the dealership. After a number of stop signs, the noise, of course, went away.

I know the dealership worked on my car and threw parts at it and did the "best" they could on finding the solution. But it didn't work and I was told the noise was gone and fixed and I was charged. Tedious as it will be, I'm going to have to work something out with the dealership now because I paid $250 to have this noise removed (for a second unsuccessful time).

ZTY S70... I'm in the EXACT same boat as you ... I too live in Berkeley & have been through everything you described except the dealership run-around.

Originally I was waiting for others to figure out the situation, but when I had my transmission + starter replaced in February, there was a period of about 2 months where I didn't experience any whining problems.

Now the whining situation has gotten to the point where it no longer disappears like it used to, but merely gets quieter after about 3-5 minutes and then resurfaces when I reduce my speed below 30mph... so basically the whine is there my entire 40 minute commute to work & it's driving me nutty.

I'm shocked that this is such a difficult problem to track down, this issue isn't isolated... I've seen and heard other vehicles with this problem.

ZTY S70 - any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks!

- mko

[AirSquid]

Hey Gents,

Just finished up changing the wife's timing belt and manual tensioner in the 98 S70 at 105k miles. Seems from reading this site and brickboard.com, that lots of things tend to get tired right around this time. The original belt was changed at 70k service, and then the tensioner died recently....belt got loose...barely avoided engine destruction...but that's another story.

Here's my 2 cents (with minimal Volvo experience, but significant repair experience). Bearings howl when they are cold and dying. I've seen a handful of posts that recommend changing lots of the bearing items on the timing belt and serpentine belt sometime after 100k miles, and after looking at the stuff that came off the wife's car, it seems to make alot of sense. I replaced both belts (timing, serpentine) and the tensioners on both of them. The timing belt one was totally wasted. The serpentine tensioner was $100 bucks of preventive work. I got the whole sprung arm and pulley assembly. The old one spun free and way too easy, probably a sign that the bearing is dead. A greased bearing shouldn't spin like a top. Both the timing belt and the serpentine belt have "idler" wheels that have bearings also. I was fully intent on replacing those at this time while the belts were off, but the dealer did not stock.

I got sucked into this thread because my wife's car was doing the same morning howl/moan for a few miles...then smooth. We'll see over the next few days if things are better. I may still replace the idlers just because both tensioners were so beat down.

Here's a couple of recommendations:....

I. along the serpentine belt, only a couple of things (theoretically) can make the howling noise:

1. Bearing on tensioner pulley
2. Bearing on idler pulley
3. Power steering pump (unlikely in my opinion, as long as it's got fluid)
4. Alternator (maybe)
5. A/C compressor. (if the noise is independent of the A/C on/off it is unlikely)


II. along the timing belt sequence it is easier it's either the:

1. Belt tensioner pulley bearing
2. Idler Bearing
3. Water Pump (unlikely...and if it was howling, it would probably be leaking and an easy spot once the cover was off...)

Here's what I would do....and am doing with mine....

1. Use an old stethoscope to locate position of noise. I think they still have something like this at some auto parts stores, but if you have one with an open hose type ending instead of the metal jobber you put against your skin, they are absolutely superb at locating a noise.....poke the hose around and it is obvious...and don't get your fingers caught in a fan or belt.

2. Consider disconnecting the serpentine belt and then going for a quick lap around the block. Yes, it will disable your power steering (BE CAREFUL), and you will probably pop an alternator code (??), but you can immediately rule out all of the crap on the serpentine belt if it still groans with the belt gone. (If you do this and pop a "check engine" light...most AutoZones will pull codes and erase them free of charge.)
If you want to try this yourself, you will need to remove the front timing plastic cover (10 or 12 mm bolt in the front center of the plastic cover....easy) and de-tension the serpentine belt tensioner adjacent to the alternator in order to remove the serpentine belt. (timing belt is another story...see mainetenance seciton here.) You will need a 3/4" square piece of square steel tubing to insert into the end of the spring loaded tensioner to work the belt out. I had some, but you can get a short piece at most hardware stores...you will need to chop it down to about 1" long and then you can slip one end in to the sprung end of the tensioner and use a 3/4" open end wrench on the other part to twist it and slack the belt.

3. Replace all the bearing devices on both belts. These things don't last forever and they are cheap insurance. Here is what I bought today:

Manual Timing Belt Tensioner for '98 $73 (imagine the hydraulic tensioner pulley is similar.)
Serpentine Belt Tensioner/Pulley assembly $110
Timing belt $45
Serp Belt $54

The bearings in both of these tensioners were about shot at around 105k miles. I would 'assume' the idler pulley on both belts is about dead too. I plan on ordering the idlers for both soon. Expect these to be about $40 bucks a pop.... The dealer did not have these in stock today, or they would have been installed already.

It sounds like you are committed to letting the dealer turn the wrench, which is fine, but I would encourage you to have them replace the cheapo idler pulleys before anything expensive along the belt or the wheel bearings....(yeah right).

I'm curious what your noise turned out to be.....let me know....I'll post any other stuff from my adventure with noise/timing belt/etc


-Squid

[ZTY S70]

KLS, MKO, Squid, thanks for the feedback on this issue:

In my scenario, to recap, the following were replaced by the Volvo dealership:

- Timing Belt Idler Pulley
- Timing Belt Tensioner Bearing
- Exterior Idler Pulley
- Oil thermostat Housing

The start-up and 2-3 minute noise is subdued slightly, but even in this 88 degree spring/summer weather, the start up noise is constantly there. It (the noise) even howls on occasion.

I just got my VISA credit card bill this week and there I see, staring at me with its ugly eyes, the $251.43 dealership charge for the above replaced parts. Labor was "comp'd" but to what effect did all their work accomplish - the problem exists and you have an unsettled and unsatisfactory feeling in the customer. Life goes on.

[deeruck]

I get a loud whining on cold start up in my '94 850. I've always ignored it, as it goes away when the car reaches operating temperature (horizontal temperature indicator). Now, I'm wondering if its the same thing. My guess was a worn turbo, but the talk about timing components makes more sense.

Is this a widespread issue?

[Searay Jim]

Temps are in the 70's or lows of maybe mid to high 60's now in north Texas so I haven't heard the howling for a while. It has to be low 60's or cooler and then, the noise shuts off like a switch, at 2-4 minutes of driving. You don't hear it at idle and it gets louder with RPM starting at about 1500 or so.

Trying to track it down is near impossible becasue it doesn't last long enough. While it was still cool enough for it to happen, I had had my wife start it in the AM and rev the RPM's until I heard it, then I had about 2 minutes to find the sound. It sounds like it was coming from under the motor and transfering out around. In that 1-2 minutes I couldn't even get a bearing as to whether it was more pronounced on any side or place.

Some of the sounds being described don't sound like this one. Dealr of course said air pump but both pump and valve are new now, and nothing has changed, including the P0401 that's being thrown still.

[Searay Jim]

ZTY S70,

Maybe this will help. It's a pic of the SAS. Look at #22 or #18. #22 could be the source of the howling if it is plugged up, maybe. My dealer is telling me it the check valve, and it's $300 to replace which means they are quoting the main control valve, which is brand new. I think I'll pay the $88 for pulling codes and thank them very much then replace the $20 #22 check valve adn what ever elbow they say has a vacuum leak.

I hope this is it!!

Edited by Searay Jim, 01 June 2005 - 01:36 AM.

[Bay13]

number 18 is the controller. it allows the vacuum to open the SAS valve. You can activate it with 12volts, disconnect 17 and feel if there is vacuum there.(with the engine running.

[Ben H]

Hey

I am still haveing the same problem...though instread of fading out after a few minutes - it is now a distinct cut off of the sound after about 1 minute.

Its too bad there is no deffinitive solution yet!

Ben

[ZTY S70]

Jim, thanks for the schematic, that along with Bay 13 admin's photo are exactly the type of things that will lead the board to solve this issue. Just requesting the update on the replacement of #22 to see if it works.

- ZTY S70

[Searay Jim]

Well, I talked to the SA today and he consulted with the Tech and said that the clogged up valve is the one that is new. He didn't have much to say when I reminded him that it was new except a little stammering about him troubleshooting it and that's what he found. Funny thing, the air pump has been working; if that control valve wasn't working I don't believe the air pump would be, and it certainly wouldn't take weeks, up to a month to set a code.

Lose business trying to drum up extra business. For the first time I feel uncomfortable with this dealership, sadly because of one guy.

[Sej]

So... any updated news on this problem?

Is this a NorCal thing?

Sej.

[DVolvoguy850T5]

I am in IL and it happens to my car, around -9 to 65*f. Not sure what it is. I put a screw driver on all the pullys and accessories when the car was runnin and listend to all of them. Noise seems to be coming from under the timing belt cover near the waterpump pully/gear. I have a hunch its the water pump. JMO It depends on lubrication from the coolant and when it warms a tad the thing gets lubed up enough to shut up.

I did have my timing belt replaced about two months ago and asked if the waterpump was leaking or had rust on the pully/gear to R&R the pump. The pump did not get replaced and the noise is still there.
<sigh>

That is why I think it could be the bearing on the waterpump shaft. Thoughts?

[TM850R]

Still no answer on this? My car has the howl also and Ive been wondering what it was. I need to replace the timing belt soon so I will see whats going on when I get around to that. I didnt think it was any of the belts because it goes away after I rev the car to a certain point leaving me to believe it is something else.

[MadeInJapan]

Way back in this thread there was talk about a air pump relay not being replaced. I didn't see any follow-up to that. Seems it would be an easy way to at least elliminate this issue from the cause. Also seems the dealer/service dept. would be willing to at least "try" a new relay to see if this makes a difference. I know everyone is up under the timing belt and serp belt and even the water pump, but the abrupt stopping of noise really really seems like the secondary air pump issue to me, replaced or not.

[ACES70]

I had an old Jetta that had a howl much like the one you are describing and it was the blower motor for the air conditioner/heater. Does it sound like its resonating from behind the dash on the passenger side? If it is in fact the blower motor, to replace was fairly expensive as the labor for pulling the dash off to get to the motor is alot. The only thing that i found that works is to control the strength of your fan very slowly and always start in the lowest possible setting in the morning, especially when its cold. In effect it is the same problem as a computer fan going bad and starting to make noise.

[smokin' T5M]

Is this a '98 or '99 turbo? I'm sorry for all of your troubles. Sound like the efforts suck. If it's a '99 there is an oil check valve that is ABOVE the crank pulley behind all the plastic on the front of the engine. Let me know. I'm trying to get a P/N.

[Fake Name]

I've had the same issue with the 855- shop suggests transmission pump. Somebody has to have found the solution by now, rught? Anyone?