EricF

Send it down to the office and I'll go over it under a stereo microscope and re-touch any suspicious solder joints. Just an offer. Could take pictures of any joints with hairline cracks under the microscope if you want

Also, it's hard to see from that picture, but it looks like all the 'feet' of the main chip on the right side are a little burnt up. Could be lighting and/or limitations of the camera though..

what are you using to braise everything? Looks great! felt my first 15psi on the 20g today, cant even immagine the boost you are running! cant wait

Has to be oxy acetylene

Looks good Hussein! I think you must have fun with that stuff. Remember in the end that is the point to all of this, not some number on a dyno sheet so the internet will approve...

(is your engine built too? I think I remember that being a yes...)

Stock 170k-ish 850 turbo longblock, including turbo cams... Stock intercooler as well... The two only really glaring shortcomings of what I'm driving around in (other than it hasn't really been tuned) :lol:

You should only need to adjust the bins in the higher load areas of the 3600 or 4200-7200 rpm. Nick should be sending you his tune soon, it's not fully worked out, by any means, but it's reasonable for sure. Basically lower the bins that are above 82 or so by maybe 2%, and the bins that are higher than 90 by maybe 5-10% depending on how high they go. Give it a whirl, anyway.

That's like NO timing in at high load... Does it feel fast/make any power?

You're probably looking at the top row, which is 2.5 kpa and a lot higher than my setup is intended to go... Unlike with Motronic, I don't just tune the top line assuming that's where I'll be at since the MAF is maxed out If you follow the 216 kpa line above 4000, that's more or less the timing I see at WOT. Which is pretty good, and a bit more timing than Hussein seems to see during his WOT datalogging (he's only recently been able to get his timing consistently above 10 degrees, before that he was seeing 0-5 BTDC advance...). Since it's not been dyno tuned I've tried to be conservative on timing. Do I think I can add 2-4 degrees in a couple bins and pick up some power? Probably But I'm being cautious.

As far as fast, it trapped 105 as it is now, with shitty passes. Picking up I think 26-27 mph in the last 1/8 mile (more than my 19T setup ever did, trapping 107+ mph). For a stock longblock and cams, and 17-18 psi boost, it's rather respectable. Once it's been to the dyno and actually tuned, it should pick up a bit as it's rich now along with being timed conservatively. I don't want to add much more timing than it has now though without some sort of knock feedback.

That's why I prefaced my map with its 'irrelevance' -- not only is the map expressed by KPA instead of Motronic's 'load' but the actual values observed in the two systems are rather different when compared to the values entered in the maps.

That's true, that's why I was hesitant, but there's still room for 1-2 degrees in a few spots(I retarded a little bit trying to reduce the problem), and Hussein was/is running the same advance(iirc) and more boost. Nick's turbo is a T3/T4 with a Super 60, or something. I'm not really up to date on turbo speak aside from the Mitsu stuff.

Here's a largely irrelevant look at one of the more current renditions of my timing map...

This is fixed timing, since I am not running any knock retard. I'm running about 2.1-2.2 kpa (1.1-1.2 bar of boost), spooling linearly starting at 3500ish with full boost a little after 4000.

They're good observations none the less, thanks! Maybe because we're running less boost I shouldn't be too scared of bumping up our timing in high load areas, and see if it can also maybe help possible boost spiking in the midrange. Only a couple degrees, not much. And, in your first sentence I think you meant to say "retarded timing creating higher boost".Agreed!

Yup you're right, I'll fix that... I would be cautious with trying to use timing to do anything boost-related around the torque peak, just because that's where detonation can do the most damage IMO. I would just mess with preload and actuator spring pressure. Very low to no preload with a medium pressure spring (like a 300/70 actuator or stock T3 ford/volvo actuator-- depending on how much arm travel you need for the 20G.. maybe 30-50% of target boost level).

For those of us who are tuning, can you expand on what these influences are please?

Basically just very retarded timing creating higher boost and very advanced timing creating lower levels of boost... I've suspected it's related to the TD04HL boost fade a lot of us have struggled with, but I'm really not sure. I know though that my blue car right now with 24 degrees initial/idle advance on a mechanical B21FT distributor with an angle outlet 19T and the wastegate port wired shut will only do about 24-25 psi and fade to around 20...

In my old GT, I also had boost set at 15 psi or so, and the distributor bolt wasn't tightened down on one test drive, the distributor turned a little retarded and I saw 18-20 psi (the car also felt slower, and the manifold glowed a good deal when I pulled over to inspect my mishap)...

These are caveman-level observations, and really I don't think with fully programmable timing that's approximately right it would ever observably affect boost levels. However, when something is way off I think weird boost characteristics point to ignition timing if wastegate size/preload/spring# are all within acceptable parameters.

Remember too that anti-lag works with a stepped timing retard to move part of the combustion event closer to the turbine...

This is a topic that someone with more understanding could give more insight to. I just have caveman-ish observations to pass along ;)

i definitely have to respectively disagree, i have yet to find a manual boost controller that is anywhere near as stable as a properly tuned closed loop PID boost controller.

Then I think you may have actuator preload issues, or something else. I have seen ignition timing heavily influence boost characteristics before.

I have an AVC-R in my car, unplugged, with a manual boost controller in the engine bay doing all the real work. If you want it I'll give you a good price on it (that goes for anyone, actually... sorry for the shameless plug)

No dude, rick spikes when you snap the throttle shut on shifts are normal, every system does it to some degree depending on how the decel fuel cut is programmed.

13:1 is a little lean for 23psi? You are nuts. Not a chance I'd every tune a car for 13:1 at 23psi on pump. You're lucky the timing is so retarded. I wonder if it would advance the timing some more if it was so lean, and probably pinging.

Well, at this point I don't think we can argue that the timing is being pulled from being too lean, because he has had basically no timing from day one, from 9:1 to 14:1 and everywhere in between. I think once he gets the AFRs dialed into the mid-low 12s he'll be able to focus more entirely upon timing and hopefully make some progress there.

Hussein, glad to hear it feels faster! Get the AFRs down a tad and get those timing values up, and I bet you'll be grinning ear to ear.

Hi Eric

The cam timing is now where it should be - and definitely feels better for it! I can easily add more timing up top, I'll just have to do it in gentle increments once I have the Map Trace Record feature at the end of the month, so I can be sure I'm adding in the appropriate load areas.

It feels much better overall, but less powerful (excluding where it was going flat previously). I need to find the right balance. Adam said the same thing about the timing; I set the Apexi to limit boost control to mechanical below 4k, to reduce knock onset in the peak torque area. Looks like it's not quite working, based on this log

Just be careful with doing too much without getting some sort of performance reference... Cars with correct timing curves usually don't feel as fast as cars that have big timing problems (that have really punchy powerbands that tend to fall off after the knock you in the face because power isn't very linear). My current setup is a very underwhelming feel compared to previous similar setups run on Motronic, but it is definitely making more power with less boost.

Also, just thinking of things to look at here... Since you have had the issues with oil in the intake tract, have you emptied your intercooler? Oil can build up especially with a smaller and shorter core pretty quickly... If you lose the bottom few rows due to oil pooled up, it's probably a measurable difference in your intake air temps.

4th gear log from this AM - looking pretty good overall - a couple of slightly lean spots

20psi tune

I think that's some progress. Looks like you have some decent timing for the most part, and your AFRs are nice. The one spot it gets to 13:1, it's well past the torque peak.

I bet it feels decent up top, despite your cam timing... How does it feel?

That sure does for all the world look like a knock event around your boost threshold and retarded timing as a result. If you could just get more ignition timing from 4100-5500....

This morning (after driving the company van for a week because I kept parking it behind the 850), the stars aligned and I was stopped at a light by myself on a normally busy road with no one ahead of me or behind me... Got to row through the gears a little before coming up on some traffic :)

Someone who was runnin in Florida upped their MAF housing size to 3" with decent results. (as far as he was saying) He could also run with an SAFC-II as well. I believe he was on a 50 trim turbo.

Maybe Torquesteer? (Ben I think)

That was Jared, (zulukingcrowned)... He made 325 whp on a dynojet down here at a little over 20 psi I think. I don't know how well his car was tuned though, never saw it in person. The S-AFC only adjusts fuel too sooo the timing pull issue would remain.

Bummer on the numbers Hussein. I know RICA has to bump their top end timing bins way up because it's going to get pulled no matter what. Maybe just start bumping the timing up until your pulled timing is acceptable.

I'm going to say ~300 whp and 310ish tq. Aka about 400 bhp :)

since you have the cams advanced to 4, would advancing them only to say 2* help on the running lean issue a bit?

He has standalone engine management so he can accurately adjust fueling at every point in the map. Adjust the cams to suit your liking for powerband, sort out ignition timing and air/fuel ratio once you have them adjusted the way you want.

Mark, careful with too much advance because you really will see it in the top end... A little has got to be nice though to help get some driveability back with that GT35 :)

EDIT: If it were the knock sensors, I would have seen the exact same condition with the Woth tune, if not more so, since that one is leaner to start & runs more requested timing, no?.

You are assuming then that the knock sensors are picking up actual knock events. I am suggesting that they may be picking up artifacts of some other noise in the engine or accessories that occurs at that level. Or that they may have some sensitivity issue or another. Since it's only at that point, it really might not be the knock sensors at all..

Given that you tried it with higher octane fuel and it didn't change (plus your timing levels when the AFRs and timing start to drop a little) I would guess that it isn't genuine knock events.

Nevertheless, you are saying that nothing mirrored this with the Woth setup and similar conditions? That is something to work with, and there is probably something you can get adjusted in your turbo tuner I bet. Did you pay to have the Woth tune turned into a turbo tuner map file? I might try reverting to that map and seeing if your datalogs show any similar such behavior (unless you've already done this). Then, backtrack what you have changed, and see if you can isolate what changes are triggering this.

Does it crap its pants if you unplug the knock sensors or can TT bypass that? Would be nice to tyr it with no knock input. Retard the whole map 10 degrees to be safe and then go from there with no knock sensors.

Could just leave them plugged in and unbolted from the block (put a rag around them or something ) I would definitely first try this at lower boost levels.

Are you sure about that? I havent seen a motronic paper or info about this, but I know on the prev versions (ie lh2.2 /EZxxxk) the ecu would first retard timing (up to 22degress in some cases!), THEN lower boost IF knock was still present. It didn't have fuel enrichment features, altho I can see it easily added to the ecu code.

Straight from the horse's mouth... Volvo blue book on Motronic 4.3.

I reckon the oxygen sensor is seeing a heap of unburnt fuel because of the retarded timing or, as JCviggen said, the ECU could be dumping fuel under knock conditions.

I will once again suggest increasing the octane level of your fuel to see if it increases your timing or leans out your mixture

The ECU's response to a detected knock event is to first try to lower the boost level, then richen the mixture, then pull timing. If it's a false alarm, there could be issues with the knock sensors, torque specs, or some specific background noise that is triggering them.

You of all people should be beyond this sort of reasoning by now. Sure maybe it "works". Look how many years everyone on tbricks said the 90+ "works". Now it's a given that the 90+ leaves a lot of power on the table. Even guys making bigger power like Peter L that were used as "proof" that the 90+ "works" eventually converted and picked up like 50whp and would never say that now.

The bottom line is even the fastest cars here have mediocre power outputs compared to what most guys with other makes are doing, and they bend rods very easily. Nobody even seems to know how the basic engine control works and you're all blaming the rods.

The fact that most are convinced convinced that the rods suck and bend on their own and aren't even very safe for 300whp speaks volumes. I'd be shocked if the rods weren't good for 350-400whp but the way things are "tuned" around here is so FUBAR'd no one will ever realize it.

Based on my motor I've already shown they're quite happy around 325whp (based on the hp per rod my motor makes) and I only stopped because I ran out of fuel. Sure blame it on a bigger hotside and no "low rpm boost spike" if you want, but the bottom line are there are some basic issues going on that no-one can seem to define that are holding most guys up bigtime.

If you don't wanna hear it then fine but I'm trying to make a point not just be an asshole.

And that's a big reason of why I went to standalone. I've always underachieved on virtually all of my setups, and a big reason is because of Motronic and the lack of tuning options for it (well, lack of success with most of these tuning options). I've finally broken out of the limitations of the stock EMS, and I am hoping once I do some tuning on my car with stock longblock (including cams), stock clutch, stock manifold stock intercooler, it will become very apparent that Motronic itself and our tuning options as a community have been a big limitation.

As far as the "weak" rods or rods bending easily, as far as I'm concerned it's operator error as much as anything else. About a year ago in a high traffic thread about someone with bent rods, I asked if any of the people posting actually even knew what detonation sounded like... Needless to say I was actually explaining that. There's a lot of carriage before the horse around here.

I have never personally bent a rod, and on my first big turbo setup, I was running 20+ psi with an off the shelf tune and running rich, and made a thread asking how people bend rods because I was beating the shit out of my car with no ill effects. That car was also not nearly as fast as it should have been.

I do think that a bigger hot side and later powerband and boost curve is of huge benefit to these cars. It's also really anemic to drive with the stock auto But there is some resolution or response issue with the EMS in my opinion, when you get very high boost levels building very quickly at low RPM. Not only that, but the 19T has a big problem with boost control if you start going over 20 psi. When my car was running 20-21 psi peak boost with the 19T, it would hold that boost level dead steady from 3500 RPM until redline. Before 3000 RPM with too much throttle it would spike to 24-26 psi *sometimes* and sometimes not. I'm neurotic about watching gauges and never let anything bad happen, but I could see how someone might not notice and run lean on a boost spike and ping and bend a rod. That was with two different types of MBC's, and a Profec B spec 2. I gave up after that and just stopped flooring it below 3500, then went to a bigger turbo. Apparently this issue doesn't come up on everyone's setups and I'm sure it has to do with a lot of factors.

Your point is well taken and I take that role here pretty often. However it is why I encourage simple setups like known 'decent' maps and mild turbos like the 18T for 99% of people here, because if they don't even know what detonation sounds like or have basic understandings of a lot of things, it's something that will get them 30-40 whp over stock and be pretty damn reliable without much room to mess it up.

I've been planning a big revision to my pinned thread for quite a while now, I have just been waiting to really tap into this current setup's potential and get some hard numbers first ;)

If I don't have all the facts, fine, but enlighten me rather than just saying I'm confused or don't know the facts.

I wish I could, Motronic's calculations are a big gray area for the most part. I really wonder what possible variables could be considered to keep things kosher after the MAF is maxed out. My post was more to say that we really don't understand exactly what's going on, but something is going on that works.

Fine, I'll make a video of the M4.3 map trace at part throttle and full throttle at similar boost. Why are you arguing about an EMS you're not even using yourself? I agree with your basics but they are irrelevant to the "pegging the MAF" problem which isn't one. Pegging the MAF or not it can be perfectly tuned to have a correct AFR between no throttle and full throttle at any boost and RPM point as long as you don't change max boost at WOT. What the fuck does all the other crap matter?

Jan I think you just need to take some datalogs. Do you have a wideband AFR channel in your datalogging?

Kenny, I know that what you are saying given all of the information at hand is a no-brainer truth. However, there are hundreds of cars running Motronic at more than 270 bhp... I have not had an 850 with less than 270 bhp in probably 5 years. I've had wideband air/fuel on the last two, with various hardware setups and they have also been my highest output setups. I think someone would have piped up since 850s have been introduced if making big power with the stock EMS somehow seriously fucked up even a certain aspect of the car's drivability.

Charles has had a 110 trap 850 since 1999 or so, with Motronic tuning done through the mail. It's not his daily driver but it was at one point. I had a car that was my daily for about two years that trapped in the 105-107 range every time it went to the track, I had wideband air/fuel monitoring and in every condition the values were good. Ben (torquesteer) has a Hahn big 16G 850 that traps 105ish and has been daily driven on that setup for about 3 years now. Jan has had a pretty well-sized turbo on his car for a couple of years now and has raced on the Nurburgring quite a bit. He should know better than anyone about part-throttle mid-high boost situations... These are only a few cars that I know the owners fairly well and know the cars have seen a LOT of miles with high output and motronic.

When the theory doesn't agree with the real world, then the theory is being formed with incomplete or incorrect information. The real world can't be declared wrong because the known variables don't add up. It's really the other way around...

Me!

Ahhh, ok

Not really - you only get inconsistent timing if it's knocking and the ECU has to retard the ignition timing away from what you specify. If there is no knock, the timing will be exactly as specified in the tables. Obviously the end result depends on the tuning knowledge of the user, but there is certainly no voodoo! Great idea for a product though... "voodoo tuner"

My understanding is that the increased noise levels at higher power levels and very high RPM really start to mess with the knock sensors. Can you adjust the threshold levels for the sensors and ignition retard settings with turbo tuner? If not, I bet that would be an exceedingly useful feature. What I recall Jan (JCViggen) saying about MTE dyno tuning is that they tend to leave the high load/rpm spark values very high on a lot of cars, knowing that there will be consistent knock retard even in the absence of actual knock events in those bins. Thus you'll see a lot of dyno tuned maps with much higher values in the high load/RPM bins than will ever actually be seen in actuality because the ECU is pulling timing at that point no matter what.

Even the suggestion of this, coupled with a lot of Hussein's datalogs showing abnormally low timing levels (with Janne's tunes as well as when he first started using turbo tuner), makes me feel like Motronic lacks the ability to really give accurate and consistent timing at those levels. Like anything else though, if you have enough adjustability with something like turbo tuner, you'll eventually get it right. Just a place where I think standalones really have the advantage.

the turbo tuner ecu (LookforJoe has) is such a better, easier to use system than MS is.

It is a nice idea to be able to go to a MAP sensor system but I have talked to Adam and he said it wouldnt be worth it.

Who is Adam?

I have a few problems with your statement

Main of which being that it seems to me that there is a lot of voodoo and guessing involved in trying to get WOT high rpm ignition timing to be consistently what you want with Motronic.

Easier to use is doubtful. Easier to set up is where turbo tuner crushes MS and any other standalones for that matter. However, the software I'm using for VEMS is Megatune, and it's not bad. Turbo tuner doesn't even datalog, so I don't know how that could be considered easier to tune. Not trying to rag on turbo tuner or you (I think turbo tuner's proven itself as a motronic tuner, and you've proven yourself to be one of the more apt dudes on here ), but just trying to clarify the comment a little...

While I agree with your assessment of EBR overall (and btw it would appear trbicks tech discussion is leaking over here somehow.), the above is oversimplifying to some degree.

A low ebr can also just mean both the cold side and hot side are equally undersized, or that exhaust flow throught the port is crappy enough that all of the pressure drop is across the port/valve seat. In other words those modifications might make EBR closer to 1:1, but power output might stay the same or even drop. That is the wierd thing.

It's a value that needs to be evaluated systemically and not as a single attribute...

Yeah that was a super simplistic explanation, I doubt it really happens exactly like that in the chamber. But it explains the concept of reversion pretty well.

From having the valves out and hitting these ports around the seat on a couple heads with a die grinder, I think you are right on the money with the valve/port idea.

As far as power dropping, I think that would really depend on whether there's reversion going on, and the improvement in exhaust side flow overall should produce some power gains at the same boost levels without even bringing EBR into the equation.

The 18T is about between a 60 trim T3 and Super 60 T3 I think, and at 15 psi in an 850 it should be absolutely in the meatiness of the compressor map.

What this EBR number makes me wonder is if the angle-outlet housing design makes the post-turbine flow good enough that it can really keep the manifold pressure in check. The wastegate port is pretty large and completely unshrouded, the turbine housing outlet is about 3" inside diameter (or a little larger). I really think that turbine housing is an overlooked gem to a lot of folks :)