RAzOR

If the illegals want to become American, why in the heck do I have to press 2 for English?

Becuase the current arrangement does not LET them become citizens. It does not even acknowledge that THEY ARE HERE.

One reason they are not assimulating into the American fabric and traditions is that too many career politicians that the American citizen elected to represent us on our needs have decided that granting rights to the illegal immigrant instead as they break our laws and helping to divide us as a nation of people has become more fashionable in front of the tv cameras of the liberal press.

The illegals know that the American political system is in total disarray and we are an easy target.

Believe what you want but illegal South Americans from other countries ain't gettin no red carpet treatment at Mexico's border like we offer at our southern border.

You southern atate boys ought to help out by takeing down all of those "Happy Hour" signs at the crosing.

Wow, really hard to read Fish. I disagree with your supposition that

"The illegals know that the American political system is in total disarray and we are an easy target. ".

Come on. Most of them have little or no education. They don't know anything other than they want to work and become Americans.

...I hate the idea of a bi-lingual america. ...

I suspect the reason they are NOT assimilating is that they feel (and are) neither here (in the US legally) nor there (in Mexico physically). Once they get the official open arms from Uncle Sam, I think we will begin to see a lot of change for the better.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement at all.

As far as black people go, it's not like they came here 'took our jobs' pocketed a lot of untaxed money to send back to their homeland to fund bringing more of them over here to work jobs we don't want for money they don't pay taxes on.

I'm failing to see how you can relate the two. And for that matter, the Chinese, Europeans, etc as well. I also don't see how they are keeping our economy competitive, please explain.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

Jena,

I agree with you on everything but the deportation. It's just not realistic. Additionally, the US desperately needs an infusion (albeit of official, legal immigrants) to help with our birthrate, relative morality, and labor force. What should happen is the border gets clamped down and a 90 day window of registration for all illegals here to apply for legal status and go through the proper review procedure. After the 90 day window, if you are here illegally, deporation fast and simple.

Steven

I'm a pretty hardcore conservative when it comes to the economy and other financial issues. I'm not as worried about the growing gap between rich and poor, at least as a result of the government. I think what we're seeing is capitalism running it's course, and those who want to be wealthy and have enough common sense to know how to do it are moving into that top "richest people" group. Many people seem to think only of the billionaires when they hear of the "richest growing richer" and forget that that group also includes the upper middle class, people earning ~175k a year and higher. One look at the housing prices in any of the prosperous cities in and around the coasts, not to mention the fact that they are still selling to see that that increase in wealth has alot to do with a growing upper middle class.

This is important because while it's near impossible for the average american to end up a billionaire within a lifetime, it's far, far easier to end up comfortably upper middle class. I think what we're seeing is society stratifying itself into the people who are comfortable as-is and just living their lives, AKA the middle class, and the people who aim to acquire material wealth, who become the upper middle and upper classes.

I think the best way to fix or aid this issue is to give people more of a level playing field as far as the resources at their disposal. This means financing things like the public schools and libraries while dropping the tuition at state colleges and universities. This way we have solutions that help everyone without being handouts targeted at certain groups, and it still leaves the final decisions about what to do with their life in the hands of the individual.

On the topic of immigration and the border, I say let them in and make it easier for them to become legitimate citizens so that they are paying taxes to support the services that they use. At least up here in MA the poor central american immigrants easily the hardest working of the poor groups, and I have no doubt that within 20 years they will be just another integrated group like the italians, irish, and other european immigrants did a hundred years ago.

At the same time I think we need to give the indigent, multi-generational poor within our own borders a kick in their proverbial buts so they can at least move up into the working class. Id love to see a proposal to link the welfare payouts of families with school-age children to the academic attendance and performance of those children. I think we'd suddenly see alot more parents becoming interested in their children's school careers. I'd love to combine it with something as simple as making community college tuition free or greatly reduced to residents of the county that the colleges serve so that welfare payments continue to families with children who are in college and doing well, to offset even the small school costs that they might have. I think it would do wonders and could break the cycle of urban poverty within a generation or two. A nice little catch however would be a mandatory depo shot to every able-bodied woman who is receiving public assistance of any kind. If you are unable to support yourself or your family on your own, there is no reason why you should be having any more children, period. If you want to have more kids you're free to go off the dole and pop them out till your heart's content, but don't expect the taxpayers to subsidize one bit of it.

I'm all for non-polluting energy, and I'd love to see more nuclear, hydroelectric, solar, and wind power installations as well as a meaningful effort on the part of the US government to work towards commercial fusion power with the rest of the world. I think we should also work towards increasing the part that ethanol and biodiesel play in our fuel scheme, but there is no reason why we can't develop commercial ethanol and biodiesel plantations in places like africa where it would both be cheaper to us, while also helping to give that region a cash crop and something to base the economy off of. Other than that I don't have much to say other than that we should have had the CIA carry out a coup in iraq placing an america-friendly general in power if we wanted an influence in that region, and that "the war against terror" while it seemed to be valid in 2001, now seems like a pathetic attempt at creating fear over an enemy that we will never really beat until islam reforms itself from within.

Long, but +10. Though you forgot to mention tight border security.

Government

I used to be very supportive of the President and believed in the US Government as a decent system and the Two-Political Party system as sufficient. I know no longer believe much of what I did that there exists a functioning, effective federal government AND I am more and more convinced very powerful interests operate below the surface, by which the now dysfunctional mainstream media can not and will not report on. The healthcare crisis and social security needs fixing but so far no one with and spine and clout has come forward. So I feel despair, that without a third party, or a clean sweep on the hill and the White House, this country is going to continue to be leaderless and consequently, continue to slip.

American Society

What is it to be an American? I don't know anymore. We are apparently borderless. The middle class is straining. The rich have gotten richer by 40% over the past 15 years while the middle class grew their wealth by 7%. Kids watch more TV than ever. Parents don't seem to care in larger numbers. There is no real right and wrong. And you are not allowed to be intolerant which means your not allowed to believe what might offend others. You may not offend others. Global warming is a religeous science if you just look at most OTHER historical temperature records and CO2/temperature trends from ice cores but we are not allowed to believe otherwise and are not educated to question or be able to question anymore. We are not really educated very well which makes it harder to figure out just how F'd we are. And we are just too busy with texting, porn, movies, starbucks, work and Paris Hilton to really think about a War on Terror and how it should be run. And oh yeah, porn is political speech protected as a first amendment right.

Debt

Our governement has put us collectively in debt of $8,000,000,000,000. That's TRILLION. By 300 million Americans, and every man, woman, child here owes $26,500 just to pay back our governments loans, what they have already spent. And our elected leaders do not see a problem with this and continue to borrow. Meanwhile social security needs a huge bailout, healthcare looms.

I'm not up for debating anyone, just wanna know...

How Screwed do you think we are today?

I guess the Canadian government doesn't have anything else pressing to worry about.

Holy crap Pras. I've been away from civilization for a while. I just read this whole thing. Wow. I have been in your shoes with a project, major-ass deadlines, debt and things not going to plan. I have to applaud your attitude throughout. I would have probably killed people. In my cases, I regreted starting projects knowing going-in that I shouldn't be pushing my luck, but like you, I want to believe in people. In the end, I get so stressed that I end up not being able to enjoy the results of my labor the way I had thought and it just soured my whole experience. FWIW, the car looks great. I think the real thing here is your strength of character.

no, but you do.

No, you do, like the sigs say. And me for that matter as well. And ALL OF US!!!!!

Shouldn't the "You Suck" be "I Suck" ?

Olberman is an idiot beyond many of us. So if W is this effective is he smart now? Or is he dumb like Keith has been saying all along? He can't be both Mr. Sports man.

We Americans are screwed by both parties.

What's the matter Grant? You seem.... down.

Excellent our plan is working

Soon all Volvo's will have GPS locators for all of the Halal stores and Halal Mcdonalds where we can all go and eat Halal food.

You can all Go to Halal !!! :lol:

I am not a liberal or a conservative I am a person who follows common sense. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I am someone who can smell a rotting fish when there is the odor in the air as it was in this case.

The car ran very well

The car was good for commuting, daily daily driving, etc

The car had lead acid batteries and got 60 miles guaranteed, and up to 100 if driven lightly.

The car slated for NiMH but Chevron had acquired the technology and for whatever reason, did not allow the new deployment.

I was wrong. The car leased for $300/month. Not bad.

A first run car NEVER makes money, let alone a new powertrain.

Ford sank $1,000,000,000 into develoing just the Escort in 1988(?), a simple commuter car.

The electric Toyota RAV-4 are still in service and get 120-150 miles with Ni-MH batteries.

Razor - Generally I am in agreeance with many of your opinions here in this forum. On this particular issue I seemed to have struck your nerve? As a kid I grew up watching the Jetson's and always had hoped that by now we all could drive those cool little space cars like George and Mr. Spacely. Sadly, we know how that has turned out. I have been involved with automobiles for more years than I care to discuss as it is my livelihood. I remember quite well the excitement level when the EV-1 came out and the hope it was to make that Jetson car closer to a reality and it's departure. Many of the comments I had made were based on articles I had read from auto writers in magazines and trade publications years ago. I no longer have these articles but have found some great summaries on-line that seem to echo my statement. Thanks for helping me remember what a neat car the EV-1 was.

General Motors EV-1

Who killed the electric car?

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

Please no snivveling, your apologies are accepted.

Struck a nerve? You made completely false statements. I am glad you've read about EV-1s. Hell, I heard Rush say once that EV's don't have air conditioning. I couldn't believe he was so misinformed. I was involved in the deployment program in Los Angeles. I drove them and other EVs on many occassions. I was peripherally involved when the first hybrid came out in 1992. That's right- 1992. You won't hear about it but it was displayed on the steps of Los Angeles City Hall. It worked great, mid-sized four seater by the startup manufacturer Clean Air Concepts. It was killed a few months later with no explanation. Not since the current hybrids, nearly 15 years later, has the concept existed. Where was it? Suppressed by low gas prices is my suspicion.

The GM EV-1 was far superioir to the Toyota RAV-4s and Nissan "mini-vans" (I forgot the name). So why did they crush it first? Why did they smash every single one? Beats me. Why did they SMASH them? There were lotsa advanced parts in there. The EV RAV's still run today, and run well.

You wanna know what I think? I think Toyota and Honda don't play golf with Ford, GM, Chevron, Texaco, etc. That's why they came out with the hybrids, and NOT GM, Ford, Chrysler.

I have been a Republican my whole life. I grew up in a corporate environment. I have seen first hand and truly believe that most corporations are harmless and usually well intentioned. But at the same time big money is smart- very smart. And free to strategize and execute. I am also not a big believer in coincidence. It takes quite a bit for me to accept a theory, let alone take it to my preception of reality. But in this case, the years of experience as a watchful observer and a devil's advocate has left me very, very suspicious.

Razor it's official you have way more a life then fish. Man it must take forever to write those fish dissertations.

Thank you but unfortunately the very fact that I do even write them proves that I, in fact, should get a life!!! :lol:

The fact that the EV-1 cost $80,000 each to build I guess had nothing to do with it? The fact that the EV-1 could only be driven in California and Arizona making larger production runs unrealistic had nothing to do with it? The fact that the EV-1 was unpopular amongst drivers had nothing to do with it? The fact that GM had to maintain a parts inventory and meet service requirements for a 10 year period for each of these unpopular vehicles had nothing to do with it?

The fact that it was cheaper for GM to sue California to rescind their overstepping laws than to continue producing a vehicle at a tremendous loss had a lot to do with it!!!

None of your examples were the cause of $10 a barrel oil. It was a world-wide recession.

You are categorically wrong on every point you make- do you just make this stuff up? The cars were not sold but leased at $500/month. The EV-1 could be driven anywhere but initially was deployed only in a few citities where the was more than enough demand for the entire limited run and the local governments supported the project with local infrastructure improvements (such as charging stations). The EV-1 was wildly popular amongst its owners and the public. So much so that they held a mock funeral at the end, staked out the holding facility where their cars had been taken and sued GM to force them to sell the cars to them. As far as your parts statement, I do not know about that, my guess is that GM had no obligation to meet the 10-year parts requirement as these were "lease-only". Which is partly why they did it this way. It was understood by all that although these were production units, they were not intended for full release.

And there was no recession in the late 90's, actually a very good economy and the midst of the most bullish stock market ever. So quite the opposite. On top of that, demand for gas was breaking records due to SUV popularity. So if anything, this is when prices should have spiked.

Where are you getting your information? You may want to question it.

I strongly encourage you to watch Who Killed the Electric car. It is well done and fair. You can draw your yor own conclusions.

record profits are not an indication of collusion. Collusion is basically what OPEC is for, control supply against almost perfectly inelastic demand and you control market prices.

You are technically correct. The reason oil was $10 a barrel (IMHO) was becuase the EV-1, Toyota RAV4, and other electrics were out making a huge impact with the public. And the California ARB Zero emmission vehicle mandate was in force and threatening.

The oil companies took a hit to kill off the future. Makes gas cheap and no one wants to change-up. Funny how once the EV's were smashed (literally) and the ZEV madate was rescinded, the prices started to creep up again.

Sure seems suspicious to me........

The End of Days approaches!!!

That's why and collusion amonst the oil companies.

+1

Collusion all the way. Evidence = Record profits. Fish, Bush is an oil-man. No sincere Renewable energy efforts, no sincere electric vehicle support, no support for even plug-in hybrids (which is the beginning of the end for big oil).

IMHO the lobbies that are behind the "status quo" and the connection.

1. Mexican Government - direct - seeks to maintian number one flow of revenue into the country.

2. Business - direct - Owners profit from low wages while the taxpayer, society, and local government covers the social burdens

3. DNC - direct - Radical elements render impotency, party sees potential future voters, afraid of political fallout, and potential national chaos.

4. GOP - direct - Business constituencies inside render them impotent, afraid of political fallout, and potential national chaos.

5. American Public - indirect - Lazy, distracted, confused and hindered by soft and inneffectively general main stream media information and analysis.

Suspected:

6. Imported Illegal Drug Industry - Direct - Would be greatly affected if border enforcement were to begin in earnest. Has a lot of cash to hire lobbying resources for unrelated but legitimate immigration and "open border" activist causes.

7. Catholic Church - Direct - "Safe Haven" crapola, "bordeless" philosophy, mainstream religeous influence on many politicians.

Hah! Kaliforneeyah already offers in-State tuition to illegals. NOw we give them credit cards, and there's another stab at driver's licenses.

My point is that it is not fair to them or good for our country. Let's shit or get off the pot. Either formally allow them to be here using the existing laws or get them out.

We are creating a slave class from our own greed.

I'll pay another $1 or $2 for strawberries as long as the guy picking them is legally allowed to be here, counted, taxed, and represented.

Well, here is my little $.02

They do the labor A LOT of people would not do.

They try to be an American and speak english.

They are doing everything illegal everyday.

They can wait to get a green card.

Shut the boarder down (it is just going to get worse)

export to mexico... do not import FROM mexico

I got hit by a car by a mexican that should not be driving, should not have a car, should not be in this country, should HAVE insurance, and should speak english

And who's fault is it that he was here in the first place and probably been here for a few months to a year or two? Hmmmm?

Its like a hippy. It only counts as half an email address and it smells kinda funny

Yeah. I get that. Some sites don't accpet Yahoo! addresses. I pay for mine. And Yahoo! mail Beta is tits.