The Real Obama

[Che'_Moderator]

Poor people suck.

BTW I volunteer 20+ hours a month at local kitchens and all over the community, but that doesn't change that poor people suck.

[Pops Racer]

and I live in Virginia so I have had the same problem the first time I voted, not in 2006 at least.

I'm not used to such a rational argument on the internet

touche.

However, I think the Department of Education is essential. The difference in quality of education in different districts within the same state let alone in different states is much to big. I spent most of my K-12 in Fairfax County which has a really good reputation but I have friends that have gone to school in Florida and California who said they felt like idiots when they moved to Fairfax County because of the difference. If you don't have one department trying to manage these problems, the gaps would get bigger.

Your friend is in the Marines which is under the Navy whose top command is in the Pentagon. The State National Guard is deployed by the federal government during war, the state government deploys them only internally to quell riots, disaster relief, etc, or if your in the south in te 1950s to prevent desegregation. If an Alaskan National Guard Unit is deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, the state government has no say in whether they stay or go.

I have never read about the French system but it sounds like it sucks. I do know a lot about Scandinavia, however; and their systems do work. I think they are ideal but I know that more than 3 times as many people live between you and me in the United States. The demographic differences make it extremely hard to implement the welfare based programs I would like to see.

I didn't say I support that. I am not a left wing militant. They are what you say, wackos.

I know I'm not going to change your position. I am only 22 so you are more likely to change mine on some things. If I may go OT as if this thread isn't already, when did you serve and in what branch? Just curious. My dad was in the Army for 20 years and his dad was drafted into the Navy during WWII. I wanted to join but I think the leadership over the past decade has been ineffective so that turned me off to the idea.

I appreciate your well defended argument. I wasn't leaving America uncapitalized out of disrespect or stupidity, just laziness.

I know Obama doesn't stand for what you believe in, but John McCain doesn't sound like a great candidate for you either. While his platform does support the economic policies that you prefer, what about small government in other areas like security. It doesn't sound like you would support some of the tenets of Patriot Act but that was a major victory for the Republican Party.

Appreciate the rationality compliment, I'm usually foaming at the mouth in frustration over folks lack of common sense, some of which you appear to posses. Sorry, I couldn't resist a backhanded compliment. I am a little skittish about many govt programs that seep towards infringing on property an privacy rights. I figured you were just being a lazy, your patriotism is not at issue. Your family should have taught you much about the price of freedom. I was in the Army as a Cavalry trooper in the '80's. The leadership within the Services now, politicians not withstanding, is the best in the world. You will be equipped with the best gear, and train in the best facilities, by the best people on the planet. It saved me from drugs, alcohol, and an idle mind. And the states used to have the final word whether the Guard went or not, more Fed interference in the operation of the states. If the Dept. of Ed. was disbanded at the Federal level, the money and resources would stay in the individual states, enabling them to make independent decisions, in effect 50 experiments would be in progress searching for the most effective, stream lined education system. That would be a true market test of an educational process. And a reduction in property taxes, which is a towns/ states usual method of funding education. My biggest gripe is not being able to use the merit system to get rid of poor teachers and promote excellence in education. The unions have killed that possibility, and they pay a lot for that protection to entrenched political types.

A couple of things. You should really read the Federalist Papers, written 300 yrs ago, that would give you great insight into the intentions of the Founding Fathers. Read Payne's pamphlet, Common Sense.

I am not anti-govt, I am pro-individual. If we all take care of ourselves we will have plenty left over to help those who can't help themselves. Leave govt out of it to do its few and enumerated tasks, and the people should be able to take care of the rest. I know this sounds like pie in the sky, but it's a goal to reach for. It used to be like that, now we need some one to hold our hands all the time.

To paraphrase Dennis Miller: Could you imagine Thomas Jefferson coming back today and witnessing the debate on taxation? Those fuckers shot the bastards for taxing their breakfast beverage, and it wasn't even coffee!

[DonutsDemise]

I was a History major but my concentration was on 20th century world history so I didn't study them but I know the gist of those documents.

As for our military leadership, I guess I meant the politicians making the rules. I didn't agree with the premise for going to war in Iraq, but since we did, why not with a force that generals called for? It wasn't going to be a cakewalk like the Gulf War when we fought conscripts who couldn't wait to have dinner in a POW camp. We were actually going into the country, fighting the Republican Guard, and then of course the guerrillas. And then to fire General Shinseki when he recommended that we would need several hundred thousand soldiers to occupy Iraq, I mean Rumsfeld was no Stalin but he made decisions like him. It's total BS when people who have experience flying planes for the reserves for a couple years during a time of relative peace start telling Army Generals who have served for nearly 40 years what military strategy is.

With taxes, my economic position is one where ideally if I were to pay more, I would get more and if taxes are lowered I'd pay less and get less. It would pretty much even out for me, but the poor who need services would suffer from lower taxes and cut welfare programs. And the fuel tax we pay at the pump, I would gladly pay twice as much if that meant that interstates on the East Coast would be as high quality as the autobahn is structurally.

[Pops Racer]

I was a History major but my concentration was on 20th century world history so I didn't study them but I know the gist of those documents.

As for our military leadership, I guess I meant the politicians making the rules. I didn't agree with the premise for going to war in Iraq, but since we did, why not with a force that generals called for? It wasn't going to be a cakewalk like the Gulf War when we fought conscripts who couldn't wait to have dinner in a POW camp. We were actually going into the country, fighting the Republican Guard, and then of course the guerrillas. And then to fire General Shinseki when he recommended that we would need several hundred thousand soldiers to occupy Iraq, I mean Rumsfeld was no Stalin but he made decisions like him. It's total BS when people who have experience flying planes for the reserves for a couple years during a time of relative peace start telling Army Generals who have served for nearly 40 years what military strategy is.

With taxes, my economic position is one where ideally if I were to pay more, I would get more and if taxes are lowered I'd pay less and get less. It would pretty much even out for me, but the poor who need services would suffer from lower taxes and cut welfare programs. And the fuel tax we pay at the pump, I would gladly pay twice as much if that meant that interstates on the East Coast would be as high quality as the autobahn is structurally.

Rewards for taxes are not destined for middle class or above. You have a very idealistic view of the tax system, and of course in a pure world it would work as you suggest, but waste, fraud and red tape eat into the theory. The machine is to big. And you don't want your suspension to rattle either! Wow are you demanding! You reinforced my point on leadership. Rummy is gone, and the troops Shinseki requested got there and did the job. Trust not the politicians, but the men and women who know about the situation on the ground. I know what your comparison to Stalin is about, but the man murdered 50 million people, so the analogy is a little dangerous. Please be careful throwing terms like Nazi, Hitler, and Stalin around, they are real mass murderers and psychopaths. Rummy was just delusional, not murderous. You have impressed me with your grasp of the world at a relatively young age, and I enjoy the debate. The internet is a weird place to debate, you can not see facial expressions, or detect tone of voice or inflection, and it is easy to hide behind the keyboard and sling expletives and other words you would not say to a persons face. I am challenged by that when i do this. Most young folks are not engaged or bother to inform themselves. The election now gets more interesting, I'm sure we will have more to discuss here.

By the way, most of the problem has not been with regular Iraqi forces, they were dispatched rather easily. The problem is the urban fighting and controlling neighborhoods. The strategery changed, leaving units in areas so they could get to know the citizenry and be aware of strange faces, build relationships, and act as a local police force, allowing folks to get back to normal as best they could. A great battle to study was in the first Gulf war, the battle of 73 Hastings. A platoon of US Abrahms tanks(4) busted a hole in the Republican Guards defensive positions, and mauled a company level unit, approx 20 tanks, in something like 17 minutes. Without a scratch. Our stuff and our guys are that good. I'm an old tank commander, so the recounting of that battle brings a swell of pride to my chest. I sometimes wish I was young enough to get back in the turret and lead a charge. Old Cav soldiers never die, I'm afraid. Be safe in the coming storms up the coast.

[DonutsDemise]

The storms that make it here normally just cause power outages but thanks for your concern. I am more worried about my Volvo

I am normally careful with analogies involving the Nazis or Stalin, but when it came to ridiculous strategic military decisions and famous names Stalin was the first one that popped into my head. His are rather comical; Soviet supply trains were rolling into Germany while Hitler's tanks were rolling into the Soviet Union and during all of this Stalin decided to get drunk when he realized what was happening Terrible analogies bother me though, like comparing post-war Iraq to post-war Germany, or comparing Ahmadinejad (wow, spelled it right on the first try) and his radical comments to Hitler and the Holocaust.

I have seen a dramatization of that battle on the discovery channel, pretty amazing stuff. I know M-1s are equipped with all kinds of electronics and other systems, but something interesting about British Challenger-2s is that they are equipped with built in tea makers Do ours have coffee makers in them?

[Pops Racer]

Stalin was not a smart soldier. You must give them credit for Stalingrad, luring the Germans into Russia, and stretching the supply trains then pincering in behind them. Then again, Hitler was a crazy/ dumb bastard also, with no real vision. If he had allowed his Generals to do their jobs, we may be speaking German now.

No tea makers!!! LOL . We drink dehydrated coffee. M1A4s do have internet cafe's in them, however!

Good job on the Iranian's name. He is a despicable creature, none the less. We are having quite the love fest now, heh? No one else seems to be chiming in lately. It's all about respecting the other fellows views. Makes for a more civil society.

[khax]

oh shit i failed.

[gdizzle]

[7 VII 7]

LOL

[DonutsDemise]

:huh: he canonized service to the State and strong nationalism, and promoted virulent antisemitism to gain support from the ignorant white population of Germany... that DOES sound familiar! well except for the last one, I think racism takes that role in our country.

It's a mad, mad, mad, mad, McCain!

[ErikS]

Poor people suck.

BTW I volunteer 20+ hours a month at local kitchens and all over the community, but that doesn't change that poor people suck.

Rich people are awesome.

BTW I invested in Merilll Lynch, AIG, Goldman Sachs, and Lehmans Bros ... and lost all my money, but poor people will still give me money anyways, rich people are awesome.

[7 VII 7]

Biden says Obama Ad Terrible

[Pops Racer]

Rich people are awesome.

BTW I invested in Merilll Lynch, AIG, Goldman Sachs, and Lehmans Bros ... and lost all my money, but poor people will still give me money anyways, rich people are awesome.

Bad investing on your part, you should have diversified more, too many of the same profile. Of course your being facetious, but my point nulls that.

I got no money so I win.

[7 VII 7]

Ok, so help me understand this...

McCain said he wants to postpone HIS campaign of what he is doing to focus on the economy and a "bailout" plan

Obama does not wan to stop HIS campaign but instead calls McCain "unprepared" for the debate tonight

Bill Clinton was interviewed by CNN and is agreeing with McCain that the two senators need to step out of the campaign and do their jobs as senators right now for our nation

Bill Clinton even said that McCain wanted MORE debates but Obama would not give it to him

I believe that Obama does not want to stop his campaign because he does not know how to do his job as a senator. I believe that as long as he has been office most of that has been trying to get in good with the higher ups and running for office.

Why would Obama be opposed to him and McCain actually doing their jobs and helping with the economy bail-out? When one of them becomes president they are going to have to back it anyways and implement it

McCain did stop HIS campaign but that does not mean that McCain supports are stopping their campaign

I just do not understand.

[DonutsDemise]

I believe that Obama does not want to stop his campaign because he does not know how to do his job as a senator. I believe that as long as he has been office most of that has been trying to get in good with the higher ups and running for office.

I bet you believe that there is an omniscient being that is somehow everywhere and anywhere at once. Doesn't mean it's fact.

It's just politricks. Plus, I bet Clinton will write in his wife on his ballot rather than vote for Obama. If I had to take a guess at Bill Clinton's goals, I would say he was trying to clandestinely undermine Obama's campaign while acting like he is campaigning for the democratic party.