The Real Obama

[Pops Racer]

First of all, your point about speculators being the cause of high oil prices is wrong.

Read This, This, and This,.

Second, I am completly for Nuclear power, lumping it in with petroleum technologies is...interesting?

And yes, us knucklehead want to invest billions of dollars on energy that can be renewed, and would in turn be less harmful to the environment, and divert power and influence from the "allah" countries you have such an affluent affection for. Try not to look at things so much in the short term, usually not the best way of doing things.

2 of your links are adds for the NY Times, A paper I no longer trust or refer to as a source . The first link was interesting so, based on that the market still controls the price, speculators or not. Supply and demand still rules. And the price dropped significantly when the moratorium was lifted, with out an extra drop being pumped. Thats speculation my friend! The knucklhead reference is based on the idea that renewable sources are ready to take over, they are not even close. If the enviro-nazis had not scared the crap out of people 30 yrs ago, we would be lighting and heating/ cooling our homes with nuke power and oil would be real cheap. If we don't drill off shore the Chinese and others will be happy to shoot a pipe into the ground and take it right out from underneath us with little or no regard to the environment. I have no affection for allah countries at all, I have no idea how you gleaned that sentiment from my post. The OPEC cartel is nothing short of a monopoly that controls supply. If it was a US country they would be busted for price fixing, and brought up on anti-trust charges. I do believe democracy and the free market can benefit there common citizens. You also ignored my statement that I realize drilling is only a temporary ,short term solution and the economic reality of alternative fuel/ energy . If you are going to challenge me, read all I say and don't provide partial responses, thats why I don't read the NY Times any more. You seem to imply that I am a drill only supporter, please read more carefully.

As an aside, how is the Soviet invasion of Georgia playing in Belarus? The Russians helped create so much havoc world wide, we can not respond to help Georgia, or are unwilling to because of the political implications at home. Georgia is one of the most succesfull democracies in the world, I'm all for a fly by over the Kremlin with stealth aircraft, just to show them they are helpless if we wish to hit them. Will the Ukraine and other former states be next? The Kremlin is now calling for the elected leader of a sovereign state to step down, calling him an "unreliable partner in the region". Russia has not changed at all, they are still a paranoid totalitarian state, filled with criminals, graft, and corrupt institutions.

[TheDude]

2 of your links are adds for the NY Times, A paper I no longer trust or refer to as a source . The first link was interesting so, based on that the market still controls the price, speculators or not. Supply and demand still rules. And the price dropped significantly when the moratorium was lifted, with out an extra drop being pumped. Thats speculation my friend! The knucklhead reference is based on the idea that renewable sources are ready to take over, they are not even close. If the enviro-nazis had not scared the crap out of people 30 yrs ago, we would be lighting and heating/ cooling our homes with nuke power and oil would be real cheap. If we don't drill off shore the Chinese and others will be happy to shoot a pipe into the ground and take it right out from underneath us with little or no regard to the environment. I have no affection for allah countries at all, I have no idea how you gleaned that sentiment from my post. The OPEC cartel is nothing short of a monopoly that controls supply. If it was a US country they would be busted for price fixing, and brought up on anti-trust charges. I do believe democracy and the free market can benefit there common citizens. You also ignored my statement that I realize drilling is only a temporary ,short term solution and the economic reality of alternative fuel/ energy . If you are going to challenge me, read all I say and don't provide partial responses, thats why I don't read the NY Times any more. You seem to imply that I am a drill only supporter, please read more carefully.

As an aside, how is the Soviet invasion of Georgia playing in Belarus? The Russians helped create so much havoc world wide, we can not respond to help Georgia, or are unwilling to because of the political implications at home. Georgia is one of the most succesfull democracies in the world, I'm all for a fly by over the Kremlin with stealth aircraft, just to show them they are helpless if we wish to hit them. Will the Ukraine and other former states be next? The Kremlin is now calling for the elected leader of a sovereign state to step down, calling him an "unreliable partner in the region". Russia has not changed at all, they are still a paranoid totalitarian state, filled with criminals, graft, and corrupt institutions.

Lol, i have as much bias for the NY Times as a whole as you, but Krugman knows what he is talking about. Speculation has no real influence on the price. Heres an excerpt about the price of onions for examples, which have no futures trading :

The Onion Ringer

July 8, 2008

Congress is back in session and oil prices are still through the roof, so pointless or destructive energy legislation is all but guaranteed. Most likely is stiffer regulation of the futures market, since Democrats and even many Republicans have so much invested in blaming "speculators" for $4 gas.

Congress always needs a political villain, but few are more undeserving. Futures trading merely allows market participants to determine the best estimate – based on available information like supply and demand and the rate of inflation – of what the real price of oil will be on the delivery date of the contracts. Such a basic price discovery mechanism lets major energy consumers hedge against volatility. Still, "speculators" always end up tied to the whipping post when people get upset about price swings.

As it happens, though, there's a useful case-study in the relationship between futures markets and commodity prices: onions. Congress might want to brush up on the results of its prior antispeculation mania before it causes more trouble.

In 1958, Congress officially banned all futures trading in the fresh onion market. Growers blamed "moneyed interests" at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange for major price movements, which could sink so low that the sack would be worth more than the onions inside, then drive back up during other seasons or even month to month. Championed by a rookie Republican Congressman named Gerald Ford, the Onion Futures Act was the first (and only) time that futures trading in a specific commodity was prohibited, and the law is still on the books.

But even after the nefarious middlemen had been curbed, cash onion prices remained highly volatile. In a classic 1963 paper, Stanford economics professor Roger Gray examined the historical behavior of onion prices before and after the ban and showed how the futures market had actually served to stabilize prices.

The fresh onion market is highly seasonal. This leads to natural and sometimes large adjustments in prices as the harvest draws near and existing inventories are updated. Speculators became the fall guys for these market forces. But in reality, the Chicago futures exchange made it possible to mitigate the effects of the harvest surplus and other shifts in supply and demand.

To this day, fresh onion prices still cycle through extreme peaks and troughs. According to the USDA, the hundredweight price stood at $10.40 in October 2006 and climbed to $55.20 by April, as bad weather reduced crop yields. Then it crashed due to overproduction, falling to $4.22 by October 2007. In April of this year, it rebounded to $13.30.

Futures trading can't drive up spot prices because the value of futures contracts agreed to by sellers expecting prices to fall must equal the value of contracts agreed to by buyers expecting prices to rise. Again, it merely offers commodity producers and consumers the opportunity to lock in the future price of goods, helping to protect against the risks of future price movements.

Tellingly, the absence of that option for onions now has some growers asking Congress to lift the ban. But instead of learning from its onion mistakes, the political class seems eager to repeat them.

As for the alternative fuels: I know they arent close, so whats your point. Pump out all the oil we can from where ever we can (to beat China, or Saudi, or whoever else) and then when absolute necessity kicks in, when we have no other choice, then start building the infrastructure for other sources of energy? Do you change your timing belt in the volvo after it breaks and messes up your stuff, or do you do preventative maintence and change it before everything goes haywire?

The comment about your affluence for Allah was meant to be sarcasm. Next time ill make that more clear.

And what will happen if there is free market in Saudi Arabia? A bigger monopoly. Think of the days of Rockeffeler. Short term price drops and huge buyouts.

About the Georgia Invasion:

I am not typing this from Belarus, if i was, regardless of what the real situation was, the media in Belarus would be all over Putins testicles. Belarus is a dictatorship. In every sense of the word.

Now, as for the real conflict. Russia has indeed cause a ton of havoc in the world, but i would argue no more than any other economically or politically powerfull nation...like the U.S for example. That being said, the Georgia conflict is not one of those times.

Georgia does not have a blooming democracy. Ossetia has for a long time wanted to become a part of russia and it was indeed agreed upon in 1992 that this would become a relaity. The current president of Georgia, however, disagress with this. He has massacred many people in that region for their desire to be a part of russia. The reason for this specific conflict, the reason Russia is defending Ossetia is probably rooted in economics. Lets face it, countries dont really help one another unless they can profit from the exchange. This does not change however, that georgia is in the wrong.

As for your theory about Russias weakness, this is not the cold war, their light bulb building technologies have improved...just a little bit. But your last statement is correct except for one thing, a massive influx of wealth into the country because of the policies directly attributed to Putins totalitarian regime.

Pardon the spelling, btw!

[Pops Racer]

Lol, i have as much bias for the NY Times as a whole as you, but Krugman knows what he is talking about. Speculation has no real influence on the price. Heres an excerpt about the price of onions for examples, which have no futures trading :

As for the alternative fuels: I know they arent close, so whats your point. Pump out all the oil we can from where ever we can (to beat China, or Saudi, or whoever else) and then when absolute necessity kicks in, when we have no other choice, then start building the infrastructure for other sources of energy? Do you change your timing belt in the volvo after it breaks and messes up your shit, or do you do preventative maintence and change it before everything goes haywire?

The comment about your affluence for Allah was meant to be sarcasm. Next time ill make that more clear.

And what will happen if there is free market in Saudi Arabia? A bigger monopoly. Think of the days of Rockeffeler. Short term price drops and huge buyouts.

About the Georgia Invasion:

I am not typing this from Belarus, if i was, regardless of what the real situation was, the media in Belarus would be all over Putins testicles. Belarus is a dictatorship. In every sense of the word.

Now, as for the real conflict. Russia has indeed cause a ton of havoc in the world, but i would argue no more than any other economically or politically powerfull nation...like the U.S for example. That being said, the Georgia conflict is not one of those times.

Georgia does not have a blooming democracy. Ossetia has for a long time wanted to become a part of russia and it was indeed agreed upon in 1992 that this would become a relaity. The current president of Georgia, however, disagress with this. He has massacred many people in that region for their desire to be a part of russia. The reason for this specific conflict, the reason Russia is defending Ossetia is probably rooted in economics. Lets face it, countries dont really help one another unless they can profit from the exchange. This does not change however, that georgia is in the wrong.

As for your theory about Russias weakness, this is not the cold war, their light bulb building technologies have improved...just a little bit. But your last statement is correct except for one thing, a massive influx of wealth into the country because of the policies directly attributed to Putins totalitarian regime.

Pardon the spelling, btw!

I don't blame the speculators, but it is a commodity. Why is oil so much cheaper in European states? Or S. America?

The alternative fuel/ energy technologies should and will be improved upon. Ingenuity, technology, and the need will make it happen and it should happen, its just not ready for mass use yet.

Is there an oil pipeline that Russia can control? I had no idea about the Georgian Presidents behaviors, and I have just read up on the Ossetia secession attempts, so Georgia is behaving like Lincoln when South Carolina wanted to seceed? Still, they crossed the border and attacked a sovereign nation. Georgia is not a democracy? I thought they had open elections and ran a free market economy?

I'm a soldier from the cold war, and I am not naive to Russia's abilities. But it appears they have placated their population with material wealth to opiate them from the reality of the oligarchy. Seems like China has pulled off the same magic. But Russia has been feeding Iran, N. Korea, and other Anti-US regimes. This distracts us a bit from the politics and oversight of much larger potential problems. And draws us thin. Seems we have no "moral" leg to stand on with Iraq and Afghanistan issues at hand. NATO and UN are useless in this situation. And most others for that matter. I wonder how the world would react if the US retracted all our "occupation" forces from Europe, Korea, and Japan?

Spelling forgiven!

[Serge]

www.walken2008.com -- nuff said.

[Pops Racer]

More Obama BS. This a section of an editorial from Deroy Murdoch.

"Obama’s “Oil SENSE Act” would repeal the 2005 Energy Policy Act’s authorization of these inventories. S.115 would leave decision makers with Carter Administration maps drawn with pre-PC technology. This is like engineering a Space Shuttle mission with slide rules.

Obama’s bill would prohibit expanded use of 3-D seismic techniques that locate and measure underwater oil deposits. In October 1999, President Clinton’s Energy Department evaluated the environmental quality of 1970s’ 2-D equipment against last decade’s 3-D technology. With the latter, Energy concluded, “Overall impacts of exploration and production are reduced because fewer wells are required to develop the same amount of reserves.” In 1970, 17 percent of offshore wells struck oil. By 1997, that figure was 48 percent.

Contemporary 4-D surveying adds the dimension of time. Satellites help find and quantify subsea deposits, track their flows, and predict their next steps. Some 70 percent of 4-D wells hit oil.

Obama’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Drill policy spurns these marvels and embraces outdated information gathered with obsolete instruments. This is the audacity of ignorance."

That is as dumb as it gets.

[Pops Racer]

www.walken2008.com -- nuff said.

His platform was rather vague on the site. I couldn't find any info on taxes, abortion, capital punishment or energy.

John Voigt for VP?

Answering my own question, oil may be cheaper because of the dollar vs other currencies.

[ErikS]

Contemporary 4-D surveying adds the dimension of time. Satellites help find and quantify subsea deposits, track their flows, and predict their next steps. Some 70 percent of 4-D wells hit oil.

4D is so yesterday ...

R3M

[TheDude]

I don't blame the speculators, but it is a commodity. Why is oil so much cheaper in European states? Or S. America?

The alternative fuel/ energy technologies should and will be improved upon. Ingenuity, technology, and the need will make it happen and it should happen, its just not ready for mass use yet.

Is there an oil pipeline that Russia can control? I had no idea about the Georgian Presidents behaviors, and I have just read up on the Ossetia secession attempts, so Georgia is behaving like Lincoln when South Carolina wanted to seceed? Still, they crossed the border and attacked a sovereign nation. Georgia is not a democracy? I thought they had open elections and ran a free market economy?

I'm a soldier from the cold war, and I am not naive to Russia's abilities. But it appears they have placated their population with material wealth to opiate them from the reality of the oligarchy. Seems like China has pulled off the same magic. But Russia has been feeding Iran, N. Korea, and other Anti-US regimes. This distracts us a bit from the politics and oversight of much larger potential problems. And draws us thin. Seems we have no "moral" leg to stand on with Iraq and Afghanistan issues at hand. NATO and UN are useless in this situation. And most others for that matter. I wonder how the world would react if the US retracted all our "occupation" forces from Europe, Korea, and Japan?

Spelling forgiven!

To give you a brief overview about the conflict in Georgia: (ill answer your other points in a little bit...)

Found this on another forum and it explains it quite well

Basic overview:

Ossetians were loyal members of the Russian empire. Then came along the cold war and Soviet collapsed. Georgia is no longer a part of Russia and Ossetia is split in half, North and South, with the North being in Russia and the South in Georgia.

Georgia starts massacring the Ossetians because they are a minority that is not liked. Russia comes in and intervenes, leaves peace keeping troops and gives Russian passports to any Ossetians that want them (this was around 1991).

Skip ahead to 2000s:

Oil/gas pipeline travels through Georgia, USA provides training + arms to Georgians and Georgian military budget raises from $30m to $1b (in a country where the gdp is roughly $20b).

South Ossetia wants to become an independent state, it is not a rich or highly populated area and provides very little for the Georgians but the Georgians want it as a matter of pride (every piece of land counts in those areas).

Georgia starts talks with S.O. and says that it will begin negotiations to actually make S.O. an independent state. Georgia then sends troops into S.O., killing Russian peacekeeping forces + civilians.

S.O. fights back and then Russia comes in and delivers some swift payback. It also sends in troops through another part of Georgia (another area that wants to become an independent state and that started resisting when the Georgians attacked S.O.). Russia starts blowing stuff up.

Georgia seeing the mess it has gotten itself into calls for help from anyone and everyone (US, UN, NATO). No-one will touch the situation with a 20 foot barge pole so the only support comes in the US flying Georgia's troops back from Iraq to fight the Russians.

TLDR: Georgia monkeyed with South Ossetia, Russia intervened. Georgia monkeyed with them again + the Russian peacekeepers. Russia pokes up Georgia royally after what was essentially a declaration of war.

//EDIT

People have pointed out the Russian build up of troops along the border but the fact is that Georgia also had a big build up of its forces below S.O..

Whether Russia or Georgia built up troops because the other had troops there is a matter of opinion unless we find any more information.

Also for the record Russia asked for a ceasefire shortly after it began taking back the S.O. capital. The Georgians (along with the US, UK, France and a few other countries as it was in a UN meeting(could have been NATO, I forget)) refused.

People have claimed that there has been violence between South Ossetians and the Georgians, which may or may not be true but likely has happened both ways. However I don't think that a few of the S.O. fighting allows the shelling and bombing of all the S.O. villages. That is equivalent of some New Yorkers fighting against the US army and police so the US just blows up New York. Problem solved.

[Pops Racer]

WOW. Very concise and informative, sounds like the Balkans again. Russia gots a lotta oil for Europe to buy, they won't do much.

[Pops Racer]

4D is so yesterday ...

R3M

Much like sonar or ground thumping used in archeology, very cool. El Director educates once more!

[ErikS]

Much like sonar or ground thumping used in archeology, very cool. El Director educates once more!

Its electromagnetic. This technology is best used for deep water off shore drilling (miles of ocean depth) and is best used paired with 3D/4D seismic data.

Its just one of those things people who blame oil companies for high oil prices and lament their profits don't understand ... these are the investments in technology that pay off for the oil companies, not how much a barrel of oil costs on a given day.

[TheDude]

Another interesting article to read about the price of oil...For you Cletus!

[7 VII 7]

Another interesting article to read about the price of oil...For you Cletus!

stay on topic please

[TheDude]

stay on topic please

Thank you for your guidance in this thread. Instead of telling people to stay on topic, which i did btw (this has to do with cletus's post about off shore drilling), take some time and post something coherent.

[Pops Racer]

stay on topic please

This thread went off topic a while ago! SO they sent oil out that we can not burn and to help support China's Olympic effort? Small amount on top of it all.

I have been reading and researching Georgia- Russia invasion today. My conclusion and opinion? Russia is a thug nation that needs to be smacked. Only thing I saw on many news channels and internet was displaced civilians and burning homes, shops and apartment buildings. Not a single military installation under attack. I hope Georgia responds like the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and I hope we send an aircraft carrier with F/A 18's flying CAP's over Georgia. Splash a couple of MIGs, put a few wholes in a couple of BMP's and they will back down. They don't have the balls to challenge us militarily. My opinion. Russia would have to look at the results their aircraft had against us in other conflicts, I don't care about Mig-29/31's speed and manueverabilty-AMRAMS for FTW. I know I sound like a war monger, but this reminds me so much of Czekeslovakia/Poland in WWII and CZeks again in 1968. My family comes from Ukraine/ Polish border town of Lvov, and if you don't think those comie fucks from the Kremlin wouldn't do it you are all naive. Georgia may have pulled some crap with Ossetia, but this is blatant disregard for regional security, sovereignty, and human rights. Fuck Russia, put a cap in their ass. They disregarded cease fire after agreeing to it and pushed deeper into Georgia, destroying coast guard vessels and routing army. Looting homes and businesses, they behave like animals, even in war there are morals.They are still pissed about dissolution in '89 and will do all they can to reconstitute the motherland. Unless Un or Nato steps in this will get ugly. They won't. Russia has been planning this for a while. The equipment is new, and they have the petro dollars to power this assault. No one has the balls to stand up to them and they don't fucking care anyway. Thumbing their red noses at the world. I hate them. I hate cowardly bullies and I hate whimpering liberals who want to talk or play nice with murderers. Yup I am self righteous and believe the US is the best hope for freedom in the world. I trust democracy and free speech as well as the free market. Keep appeasing the murderers and they will be at your doorstep. I swear if I wasn't an old creaky bastard I'd re-enlist and put my ass back in the gunners seat of a tank. I'm indignant right now, and have no patience or understanding. Peace thru superior fire power. If you punch a bully in the nose he will run crying to his momma. Every time I got into a fight, I'd go after the biggest baddest fuck in the group. I got plenty of stitches, but most of the time the cocksuckers ran. Cowards. I AM LIVID!!

Obama whimpered about this until McCAin spoke tough. Pussy. John "Wayne" McCain for Prez.