Political **warning**

[olosports]

http://forums.vptuning.com/viewtopic.php?p=34885#34885

[gdizzle]

Kerry is such a tool! Anyone else think J Edwards got his butt handed to him last night?

[InlineTurbo]

Its not a matter of thinking. Edwards got his jerk handed to him giftwrapped. Now that is what I want from a Vice President. Cheney is one sharp dude.

Did you catch how George Sorros got the name factcheck.com and makes it a reroute to his Anti-Bush webpage? Almost as classless as Terri McAulliffe or however you spell it sent out mass emails about how they had to control the post debate spin and linked all the online polls for the lib tools to spam.

[ChuckV986]

I think it was a tough call. I thought Edwards did better in the first half, but Cheney out and out owned him in the second half. I think Cheney clearly did better though. For that matter, I think his performance really humbled W's. I heard one R Senator comment today (can't remember who off the top of my head), "Cheney's performance compared to Bush kinda makes one wonder why he isn't on the top of the ticket." He's clearly got his stuff together a lot better than Bush does... And I thought the way he handled the gay-marriage question was very classy too. Overall I think the poles will end up showing something like 45/35 Cheney/Edwards. He certainly impressed me much more than Edwards, and more than Bush for that matter. He didn't impress me more than Kerry in the Bush Kerry debate, but that's largely because I didn't have very high expectations for him and he really delivered.

[mmetz]

Kerry is a goon. If you think Kerry won his debate over Bush... you obviously were more concerned with appearance and style rather than actual content. I cannot comprehend how an individual can contradict himself and not realize it... he is playing Americans for fools... and unfortunately there are plenty of them lined up to drink the Kerry koolaid.

Edwards is a child. He shouldn't be allowed to be in the same room as Cheney. I loved how Cheney would have no response for Edward's nonsensical babbling. Cheney was smart enough not to waste his time and Americans should follow suit and not waste their votes. Here's a frightening thought... can you really picture man-boy as President, should something happen to Kerry [supposing he's elected] ... that is laughable to me.

What really pisses me off is that darn thumb pointing thing that Kerry and Edwards do [Clinton did it too]. It's the panzy politically correct way to point. That's the problem with the Kerry ticket right there - the non-commital pointing - representative of their non-commital policies and lack of agenda, able shift and change with the winds of popularity.

Now I'm all pissed off reminding myself that America is continually being manipulated and lied too by liberal spin. Stop spinning and blaming and dodging and make a darn consistent solid non-contradicting point!

[JCviggen]

Kerry is a goon. If you think Kerry won his debate over Bush... you obviously were more concerned with appearance and style rather than actual content.

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I'm going to tread carefully here, since I'm not a US citizen or anything. That doesnt mean however that I'm not in a good position to observe things.

I actually watched the Kerry vs Bush debate even though it was at 3 frikkin AM in the morning.

What "actual content" are you talking about, when referring to Bush?

It seemed to me Bush is mainly annoyed by the fact there's an election coming up "We're doing such a fine job just leave us alone and stop asking questions!".

I'm by NO MEANS a fan of Kerry. He's just another bozo the Democrats pulled out of the fridge. But I have not seen anything even remotely convincing from the Bush camp, aside from the fact they are "rock solid" on their points and not "flip-flopping". That's commendable, but I would think even the most vivid Bush supporters can acknowledge things arent all going as smooth as they could be going. Holding onto your points is fine but situations change, and you cant always just look blindly in front of you ignoring everything else around you. The flip-flop thing is exaggerated anyway. If Kerry had been in Bush's position back when he voted FOR the war he probably wouldnt have done exactly the same.

Anyway, if I was an American citizen I'd probably vote for Kerry. Reason being that the Bush administration have (IMHO) shown that they're not the most capable leadership. Not that everything is automatically their fault, but still. Wether Kerry is better you honestly cant say in advance. You just cant, there is insufficient information to come to a conclusion. Based on that I'd vote Kerry just to CHANGE, possibly for the better, unlikely for the worse.

The biggest problem that I see is that in the US, it doesnt matter exactly which puppet the Dem & Rep party put forward. One of them is going to end up in the whitehouse anyway.

The most capable person in the world (US in this case) could run for president, if he wasnt in the Dem or Rep party he wouldnt get 10% of the votes...

Anyway...whenever I go on one of these rants I get dismissed as not "knowing how the system works" and being stupid, moronic, without a clue...you name it!

Personally I like to think that being on the outside gives me a way better perspective than most American voters will ever have. And lets face it, very few people vote for a candidate's political programme. Most of you bashing Kerry in this thread would be bashing the Democrats no matter how much sense they would make.

[mmetz]

I'm going to tread carefully here, since I'm not a US citizen or anything. That doesnt mean however that I'm not in a good position to observe things.

I actually watched the Kerry vs Bush debate even though it was at 3 frikkin AM in the morning.

What "actual content" are you talking about, when referring to Bush?

It seemed to me Bush is mainly annoyed by the fact there's an election coming up "We're doing such a fine job just leave us alone and stop asking questions!".

I'm by NO MEANS a fan of Kerry. He's just another bozo the Democrats pulled out of the fridge. But I have not seen anything even remotely convincing from the Bush camp, aside from the fact they are "rock solid" on their points and not "flip-flopping". That's commendable, but I would think even the most vivid Bush supporters can acknowledge things arent all going as smooth as they could be going. Holding onto your points is fine but situations change, and you cant always just look blindly in front of you ignoring everything else around you. The flip-flop thing is exaggerated anyway. If Kerry had been in Bush's position back when he voted FOR the war he probably wouldnt have done exactly the same.

Anyway, if I was an American citizen I'd probably vote for Kerry. Reason being that the Bush administration have (IMHO) shown that they're not the most capable leadership. Not that everything is automatically their fault, but still. Wether Kerry is better you honestly cant say in advance. You just cant, there is insufficient information to come to a conclusion. Based on that I'd vote Kerry just to CHANGE, possibly for the better, unlikely for the worse.

The biggest problem that I see is that in the US, it doesnt matter exactly which puppet the Dem & Rep party put forward. One of them is going to end up in the whitehouse anyway.

The most capable person in the world (US in this case) could run for president, if he wasnt in the Dem or Rep party he wouldnt get 10% of the votes...

Anyway...whenever I go on one of these rants I get dismissed as not "knowing how the system works" and being stupid, moronic, without a clue...you name it!

Personally I like to think that being on the outside gives me a way better perspective than most American voters will ever have. And lets face it, very few people vote for a candidate's political programme. Most of you bashing Kerry in this thread would be bashing the Democrats no matter how much sense they would make.

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Your view is rather accurate. It is good to have insight from the "outside".

I personally don't believe the Bush administration is going about things as blindly as some may think. I believe they've made changes, however I do wish the would be more up front about those changes or the need for them and still stick with their consistent overall agenda.

I do have a biased opinion - but I try listening with an open mind to each candidates views, points etc. I don't think everyone can wholeheartedly agree with everything that comes out of a candidates mouth all of the time - even the candidate they're voting for. I have written Kerry off because of what he has said and done. I "bash" Dems because I disagree with most of what they stand for... not because they are Dems... though I'm sure there are voters who choose soley based on the R or the D beside the name on the ballot.

JCviggen... out of curiosity, where are you from?

[JCviggen]

I personally don't believe the Bush administration is going about things as blindly as some may think.

I was exaggerating a little...either way, they are hardly being very open about what they intend to do about certain things. Issues are being avoided with the typical re-iteration of things everybody already knows.

I do have a biased opinion - but I try listening with an open mind to each candidates views, points etc. I don't think everyone can wholeheartedly agree with everything that comes out of a candidates mouth all of the time - even the candidate they're voting for. I have written Kerry off because of what he has said and done. I "bash" Dems because I disagree with most of what they stand for... not because they are Dems... though I'm sure there are voters who choose soley based on the R or the D beside the name on the ballot.

There should be more people like you then!

I have noticed it is an extremely touchy subject to talk about with Americans. Especially on the internet it is nearly impossible to have a meaningful constructive discussion about political issues. It always turns into a flamefest after post #3 or earlier.

I've actually noticed that site factcheck.ORG is extremely useful and rarely unbiased. I would suggest everybody read up on that site after each debate to see who was actually wrong about what. Both sides always make a string of factual errors, which could well be important issues for some voters.

JCviggen... out of curiosity, where are you from?

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Belgium Which is by a stroke of luck right next to the Nürburgring

I've lived nearly a year in Denmark though and my girlfriend is Russian...if that makes any sense :lol:

Edited October 7, 2004 by JCviggen

[mmetz]

yes, JCviggen, there should be more people like me

my big question is - why do only about 45 - 50% of Americans vote and there is about 80 - 85% voter turn-out in Europe? Do they hand out cookies or something? I guess more people care about the world across the pond.

nice discussion. tell everyone in Belgium I said hi.

[JCviggen]

nice discussion. tell everyone in Belgium I said hi.

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lol will do

Well I'm not sure why the voter turn-out is so much larger here...I can tell you though that Belgium, as one of the only countries in the world, has mandatory voting. So every person over 18 officially HAS to vote. Of course there's 2 or 3% who cant for various reasons, but they need to back it up with paperwork

I hope they'll abolish this soon...its rediculous.

[gdizzle]

yes,  JCviggen,  there should be more people like me 

my big question is  - why do only about 45 - 50% of Americans vote and there is about 80 - 85% voter turn-out in Europe? Do they hand out cookies or something? I guess more people care about the world across the pond.

nice discussion. tell everyone in Belgium I said hi.

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If you really knew Mike JC, you wouldn't want more people like him! :P

[mmetz]

If you really knew Mike JC, you wouldn't want more people like him!

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:D

[theunderlord]

Kerry is such a tool!  Anyone else think J Edwards got his butt handed to him last night?

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Greg, you're such a genious! amen brother!

[ChuckV986]

What really pisses me off is that darn thumb pointing thing that Kerry and Edwards do [Clinton did it too]. It's the panzy politically correct way to point.

Hahaha, that's so true. I've always noticed that, it's always bothered me.

Kerry is a goon. If you think Kerry won his debate over Bush... you obviously were more concerned with appearance and style rather than actual content. I cannot comprehend how an individual can contradict himself and not realize it... he is playing Americans for fools... and unfortunately there are plenty of them lined up to drink the Kerry koolaid.

Edwards is a child. He shouldn't be allowed to be in the same room as Cheney. I loved how Cheney would have no response for Edward's nonsensical babbling. Cheney was smart enough not to waste his time and Americans should follow suit and not waste their votes. Here's a frightening thought... can you really picture man-boy as President, should something happen to Kerry [supposing he's elected] ... that is laughable to me.

All those polls show at least a 2:1 lead for Kerry in performance in the debate. Put it this way, I was undecided before the debate, and after it I'm voting for Kerry. I really haven't seen any significant contradictions out of Kerry, I think that's pretty much just Bush's spin to try to turn the election into an examination of Kerry instead of examination of the (rather sub-par) job he's done the last 4 years.

Edwards isn't terribly impressive, I agree with you. It's interesting that Cheney is the "brains" of the operation on the Republican ticket, but Kerry is the "brains" of the Dem ticket, all relatively speaking of course.

Now I'm all pissed off reminding myself that America is continually being manipulated and lied too by liberal spin. Stop spinning and blaming and dodging and make a darn consistent solid non-contradicting point!

I would have to say I think just the oposite is true. You know most Americans still think Sadam had something to do with 9/11? You're right that Americans are pretty accepting of whatever they're fed.

I'm going to tread carefully here, since I'm not a US citizen or anything. That doesnt mean however that I'm not in a good position to observe things.

I actually watched the Kerry vs Bush debate even though it was at 3 frikkin AM in the morning.

What "actual content" are you talking about, when referring to Bush?

It seemed to me Bush is mainly annoyed by the fact there's an election coming up  "We're doing such a fine job just leave us alone and stop asking questions!".

I'm by NO MEANS a fan of Kerry. He's just another bozo the Democrats pulled out of the fridge. But I have not seen anything even remotely convincing from the Bush camp, aside from the fact they are "rock solid" on their points and not "flip-flopping". That's commendable, but I would think even the most vivid Bush supporters can acknowledge things arent all going as smooth as they could be going. Holding onto your points is fine but situations change, and you cant always just look blindly in front of you ignoring everything else around you. The flip-flop thing is exaggerated anyway. If Kerry had been in Bush's position back when he voted FOR the war he probably wouldnt have done exactly the same.

Anyway, if I was an American citizen I'd probably vote for Kerry. Reason being that the Bush administration have (IMHO) shown that they're not the most capable leadership. Not that everything is automatically their fault, but still. Wether Kerry is better you honestly cant say in advance. You just cant, there is insufficient information to come to a conclusion. Based on that I'd vote Kerry just to CHANGE, possibly for the better, unlikely for the worse.

The biggest problem that I see is that in the US, it doesnt matter exactly which puppet the Dem & Rep party put forward. One of them is going to end up in the whitehouse anyway.

The most capable person in the world (US in this case) could run for president, if he wasnt in the Dem or Rep party he wouldnt get 10% of the votes...

Anyway...whenever I go on one of these rants I get dismissed as not "knowing how the system works" and being stupid, moronic, without a clue...you name it!

Personally I like to think that being on the outside gives me a way better perspective than most American voters will ever have. And lets face it, very few people vote for a candidate's political programme. Most of you bashing Kerry in this thread would be bashing the Democrats no matter how much sense they would make.

Very inciteful. I think that's the truth of it right there.

[ontheheel]

If Kerry had been in Bush's position back when he voted FOR the war he probably wouldnt have done exactly the same.

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interesting thing on this topic a few weeks ago. bush issued a challenge to kerry asking if, knowing what they know now about the wmd's, he would have not invaded iraq. kerry said he would have. this, of course, was during one of his pro-war moments. he's had some of those. he's also had his anti-war moments. not speaking from a republican point of view, i honestly don't know where he stands on the war. some times i have respected him for standing up for it (and standing behind his vote), but other times, when it has become politically expedient, he trashes bush on the war. i honestly am pretty confused as to what he believes, because i have heard him on both sides of the fence on more than one occasion on the topic of the war.