Abortion Discussion

[jross]

Pro-choice is nothing but selfishness.

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Not really. I think that people have a right to choose, up to a point. For the first few months, it's not really a human (biologically), so why not? Not bringing a child into a world where it's not wanted seems much less cruel than wontonly imposing your own believes and values onto others. If the mother feels an abortion is alright, I think that's her decision, and she has to live with it. I understand that alot of people feel that the baby has a right to life, and I agree with that... but if it's not human yet, why exempt it from the way we treat all the other animals in our lives?

[matt1122]

Pro-choice is nothing but selfishness.

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Quite frankly no one is asking you or the government what you think of it. There is no reason you have to impose your morals and thinking on anyone else. The US is built upon freedom of choice - people kill other adults even though it's illegal, so what makes you think making abortions illegal would stop them anyway? In no way would banning abortions help our society, even if it did make you feel like you were a better person and you lived in a better and more morally just country.

That said, abortion isn't really a conservative vs. liberal issue, it is a partisan issue. One party stands on one side in general, the other party stands on the other side, but it shouldn't influence your decision in this poll what-so-ever since the poll is not party based. See past the parties and politics and decide if you are for a more conservatively government or a more liberally run government.

[gdizzle]

Quite frankly no one is asking you or the government what you think of it. There is no reason you have to impose your morals and thinking on anyone else. The US is built upon freedom of choice - people kill other adults even though it's illegal, so what makes you think making abortions illegal would stop them anyway? In no way would banning abortions help our society, even if it did make you feel like you were a better person and you lived in a better and more morally just country.

That said, abortion isn't really a conservative vs. liberal issue, it is a partisan issue. One party stands on one side in general, the other party stands on the other side, but it shouldn't influence your decision in this poll what-so-ever since the poll is not party based. See past the parties and politics and decide if you are for a more conservatively government or a more liberally run government.

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WOW! That's the biggest bunch of crap evAR! So what you are saying is murder should be leagal, I mean, were just going to do it anyway!

Edited October 8, 2004 by gdogg16

[Guest DougK]

Call me captain conservative [based on Inline's def.]

To expand on my conservative stance - I'm also Pro-Life. And FTR that "masterbation is mass murder" argument is weak. An unborn zygote/baby is not "potential" life it IS life. My daughter is one month old - still can't imagine that the government allows my wife and I to decide on our if we were to let her be born or to be sucked out of the uterus by a vacuum. My question is if we have the right to put our unborn children to death - why can't I go cleanse the gene pool once and a while - same to me. Pro-choice is nothing but selfishness.

Liberalism just seems backwards to me. "Don't hurt the environment! Don't cut down that tree! Don't club that baby seal! .... but go ahead and suck the brain out of your own unborn.  - You conservatives are wrong! You can't put those ten commandments up! You can't carry your bible in school! You can't put restrictions on me! You can't tell me what to do! ... but we should have complete tolerance of every other religion, creed and moral.  - Let's focus inwardly and ignore the those nice militants who have vowed to kill all infidels [Americans], maybe they'll just not terroize us if we ask nicely."

Drives me crazy. Bring on the replies.

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Im sorry but you are mistaken in the point. Any sperm that is "Wasted" by not attempting to fertilize an egg is a possible future child that is "wasted" as well.

Secondly, I didn't say I approved of aborition, I SIMPLY said that the goverment has no right to single handedly decide what is right or wrong for millions of women and thier potential children. I would much rather see an abortion than a child raised in an unfit home, malnourished, beaten ect.

Third, the common views of prolifers are that people just have abortions weekly. Im sorry, unless you are a WOMAN I highly doubt that the majority of us can fully comprehend the mental process involved in deciding to get an abortion or not. Safe to say, niether can the goverment, nor could they fairly or effectively decide on a case by case basis.

Which still brings me back to the point. If you are for it or think its apprehensiable or not, I still do not believe any of us have the right (Gov't included) to make a decision for the masses, when that decision will have little to no effect on our own personal lives.

As it stands right now, I think the current abortion laws are fairly adequete.

Oh, don't give me the "killing people thing", apparently that doesn't stop Pro-LIFERS from blowing up abortion clinics either.

[Guest DougK]

Heres a quote to consider (though I can not remeber who said it)

"One mans right ends where another mans rights begin"

[gdizzle]

Im sorry but you are mistaken in the point. Any sperm that is "Wasted" by not attempting to fertilize an egg is a possible future child that is "wasted" as well.

Secondly, I didn't say I approved of aborition, I SIMPLY said that the goverment has no right to single handedly decide what is right or wrong for millions of women and thier potential children. I would much rather see an abortion than a child raised in an unfit home, malnourished, beaten ect.

Third, the common views of prolifers are that people just have abortions weekly. Im sorry, unless you are a WOMAN I highly doubt that the majority of us can fully comprehend the mental process involved in deciding to get an abortion or not. Safe to say, niether can the goverment, nor could they fairly or effectively decide on a case by case basis.

Which still brings me back to the point. If you are for it or think its apprehensiable or not, I still do not believe any of us have the right (Gov't included) to make a decision for the masses, when that decision will have little to no effect on our own personal lives.

As it stands right now, I think the current abortion laws are fairly adequete.

Oh, don't give me the "killing people thing", apparently that doesn't stop Pro-LIFERS from blowing up abortion clinics either.

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There are "radicals" in every movement and sadly enough, they are the ones who get all the attention. Sorry Doug, but your arguement is weak just like Matts. Killing is killing. I can see if a women is raped, then maybe. Mike is correct though, abortion is nothing but selfishness! It's for the irresponsible in most cases. Partial birth abortions are even worse! I don't have time to lay the smack down but I will chime back in later on.

[mmetz]

Not really. I think that people have a right to choose, up to a point. For the first few months, it's not really a human (biologically), so why not? Not bringing a child into a world where it's not wanted seems much less cruel than wontonly imposing your own believes and values onto others. If the mother feels an abortion is alright, I think that's her decision, and she has to live with it. I understand that alot of people feel that the baby has a right to life, and I agree with that... but if it's not human yet, why exempt it from the way we treat all the other animals in our lives?

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That is where we differ. I believe it is a life as soon as cells begin to split. No other way to look at it... wether you view it as "human" or not is besides the point ... it is an individual's life.

As far as the child not being wanted... Have you ever heard of adoption? This is where my point of selfishness comes in > if a woman is going to paticipate in sexual acts that get her pregnant but she doesn't want a child... 1. she should've thought about and took preventitive action before getting pregenent. 2. if those measures do not work - many couples who can't have children would love hers. Why should the baby be executed because her mother doesn't want to deal with it... that is pathetic.

I hope you are not implying that a developing child is equivilent of "all other animals". If so, and I hope I'm wrong, you should not try to have children.

[jross]

1) I do take the view that largely, people are animals. I'm not saying I treat them both the same, but I don't see us as being all that different.

2) Babies are people, in potentia. However, I don't really think they're human until they are sufficiently developed (sometime in the 2nd trimester). Until that point, I don't see much difference in a human fetus and any other animal fetus.

3) Adoption is a great idea on paper. It doesn't always work out. When it does, I'll support that instead.

I'm not saying you can't have your views, you're allowed to. I just feel that:

1)As men, we cannot tell women what to do or what not to do when it comes to their reproductive system.

2) You have your beliefs, I have mine. I don't impose mine on you, and I expect you not to impose yours on me.

[mmetz]

Im sorry but you are mistaken in the point. Any sperm that is "Wasted" by not attempting to fertilize an egg is a possible future child that is "wasted" as well.

Secondly, I didn't say I approved of aborition, I SIMPLY said that the goverment has no right to single handedly decide what is right or wrong for millions of women and thier potential children. I would much rather see an abortion than a child raised in an unfit home, malnourished, beaten ect.

Third, the common views of prolifers are that people just have abortions weekly. Im sorry, unless you are a WOMAN I highly doubt that the majority of us can fully comprehend the mental process involved in deciding to get an abortion or not. Safe to say, niether can the goverment, nor could they fairly or effectively decide on a case by case basis.

Which still brings me back to the point. If you are for it or think its apprehensiable or not, I still do not believe any of us have the right (Gov't included) to make a decision for the masses, when that decision will have little to no effect on our own personal lives.

As it stands right now, I think the current abortion laws are fairly adequete.

Oh, don't give me the "killing people thing", apparently that doesn't stop Pro-LIFERS from blowing up abortion clinics either.

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Apology accepted, however the point is not POTENTIAL life being wasted it is EXISTING LIFE that is being wasted. BIG difference. But if you want to continue equating an unborn baby with the jiz you shot into a magazine, that's on your concience.

Secondly, if you say "I don't approve abortions" but then say on the other hand that it is ok for the woman to decide on her own - that's like saying I don't approve of cows and living on a cattle farm. You are either Pro Choice or Pro Life. Not really much middle ground there. It's pretty easy for us guys to make a deposit and whipe our hands of the situation... but come on, at least own up to one side or the other. And as far as children in bad situations... welcome to reality, but at least they aren't dead. Your argument would support ending the lives of children because their parents beat them. There is also adoption.

Thirdly, my common view as a ProLifer is that millions and millions of abortions have occured. I don't care if they are weekly, monthly, yearly... one single abortion is too many. I agree that only a woman can know and understand what only she is going through in that situation... but the problem is that it is not only her life but the life of her child in question. Our government exists to protect our rights and our freedoms and if a law can exist to protect the lives of the unborn, than I will fight for it. As the law exists today, it provides a "right" to the mother while ignoring the right of the child. It is my opinion, but that should not be.

I can give you the "killing people thing" whenever I want and I will continue to hold that stance. Yes, some mentally twisted "prolifers" decided to kill some abortion doctors/nurses - so I guess they aren't pro life then are they?... so don't be ignorant enough to put me or any other true prolife supporter in the same boat as them.

[mmetz]

Quite frankly no one is asking you or the government what you think of it. There is no reason you have to impose your morals and thinking on anyone else. The US is built upon freedom of choice - people kill other adults even though it's illegal, so what makes you think making abortions illegal would stop them anyway? In no way would banning abortions help our society, even if it did make you feel like you were a better person and you lived in a better and more morally just country.

That said, abortion isn't really a conservative vs. liberal issue, it is a partisan issue. One party stands on one side in general, the other party stands on the other side, but it shouldn't influence your decision in this poll what-so-ever since the poll is not party based. See past the parties and politics and decide if you are for a more conservatively government or a more liberally run government.

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Wow. That is one of the more ingnorant, close-minded, nonsensical things I have ever read. No one is asking me? No reason for me to impose my morals?Well why don't we all just go ahead and do whatever the eff we want?

Why vote? Why have a say? Why stand up for anything? Let's just tolerate everything.

Do you realize how misguided your argument is? "Let's not bother to make abortion illegal, because murder is illegal and that law doesn't work?" So should we just do away with laws because laws impose apon our rights? "Stop it those laws hurt my feelings, I don't like them."

Are you retarded? I think you are. Laws exist to protect our freedoms.

Newsflash... abortion is a conservated / liberal issue. Accross the board, liberals are mostly pro-choice... conservatives are mostly pro-life. This is what I have observed. If you haven't... I'm sorry, but before you begin a post like this do some research.

You can't just split peoples views evenly without getting into issues... nice try though.

<_<

Edited October 8, 2004 by mmetz

[jross]

Wow. That is one of the more ingnorant, close-minded, nonsensical things I have ever read. Are you stupid? No one is asking me? No reason for me to impose my morals?Well why don't we all just go ahead and do whatever the eff we want?

Why vote? Why have a say? Why stand up for anything? Let's just tolerate everything.

Do you realize how misguided your argument is? "Let's not bother to make abortion illegal, because murder is illegal and that law doesn't work?" So should we just do away with laws because laws impose apon our rights? "Stop it those laws hurt my feelings, I don't like them."

Are you retarded? I think you are. Laws exist to protect our freedoms.

Newsflash... abortion is a conservated / liberal issue you dolt. Do some homework and you will notice that accross the board, liberals are mostly pro-choice... conservatives are mostly pro-life. This is what I have observed. If you haven't... I'm sorry, but before you begin a post like this do some research.

You can't just split peoples views evenly without getting into issues... nice try though.

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Hey, go easy on Matt... I mean, since when do you look for coherent arguements from the village nice guy?

(Also, you're starting to sound like you're making alot of personal attacks in general. You might want to tone it down a little.)

Edited October 8, 2004 by jross

[mmetz]

1) I do take the view that largely, people are animals. I'm not saying I treat them both the same, but I don't see us as being all that different.

2) Babies are people, in potentia. However, I don't really think they're human until they are sufficiently developed (sometime in the 2nd trimester). Until that point, I don't see much difference in a human fetus and any other animal fetus.

3) Adoption is a great idea on paper. It doesn't always work out. When it does, I'll support that instead.

I'm not saying you can't have your views, you're allowed to. I just feel that:

1)As men, we cannot tell women what to do or what not to do when it comes to their reproductive system.

2) You have your beliefs, I have mine. I don't impose mine on you, and I expect you not to impose yours on me.

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After reading your latest points it is obvious that we essentially disagree on what is or isn't human life and at what point it begins. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree too that adoption is not as easy as it appears and is quite difficult, but ultimately IMO a much better decision.

I do have to comment on your last point. As the laws exist today, your views/beliefs ARE imposed on me. And because this is a free country, I have the right to stand up for what I believe in, as do you. I'm afraid I can't sit idley by. You're also free to ignore me.

[mmetz]

Hey, go easy on Matt... I mean, since when do you look for coherent arguements from the village nice guy?

(Also, you're starting to sound like you're making alot of personal attacks in general. You might want to tone it down a little.)

I apologize for being too personal ... got I little fired up. I'll edit as necessary.

[jross]

I apologize for being too personal ... got I little fired up. I'll edit as necessary.

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It's alright, I know how it feels to be outnumbered :-\ and it's all to easy to get defensive, and go from there.

[jross]

After reading your latest points it is obvious that we essentially disagree on what is or isn't human life and at what point it begins. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree too that adoption is not as easy as it appears and is quite difficult, but ultimately IMO a much better decision.

I do have to comment on your last point. As the laws exist today, your views/beliefs ARE imposed on me. And because this is a free country, I have the right to stand up for what I believe in, as do you. I'm afraid I can't sit idley by. You're also free to ignore me.

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I guess part of my arguement is that the government really has no right being in our lives in the first place, so part of my last point is that it's a human decision that should be left to the individual.

And, to touch on your point... I think the problem is that we do indeed disagree on when life begins. I guess the big problem is that you believe life begins much earlier than I do, and that it's wrong to kill. In that situation, I understand - you can't just watch people abort the lives of their (unborn) children. That's the crappy thing about this arguement, is that you've got people who feel very strongly either way about both sides, and both have very good reasons why one can or cannot abort.