Tax Reform

[ErikS]

I'd like to see how much ExxonMobile paid lobbyists and how much in taxes vs. their profits. And how many folks they employ.

2nd quarter of 2008 they paid $32.6 Billion in taxes and had a profit of $11.6 Billion.

They employed around 81,000 people in 2007.

[Pops Racer]

2nd quarter of 2008 they paid $32.6 Billion in taxes and had a profit of $11.6 Billion.

They employed around 81,000 people in 2007.

Erik, you are goood.

That actually sound like a reasonable number. I'm not sure they are making outrageous profit relative to research and exploration expenditures. Would also like to see how much that 81,000 employees paid in taxes. Or how much EM paid to lobbyists.

Seems like EM is paying their fair share, 2-1 tax to profit. If that was the ratio for an individual....youd be screaming, no?

[Pops Racer]

No, I said it was a bad idea. Read it again. I say, that it is NEVER a good idea. Your grasp on simple economics must be hurting as well. The only reason America survives is because it has an economy based on consumption. The middle class are the number one consumers. Without their disposable income the whole thing falls apart. Look what happens when they don’t spend on gas, or at Christmas. Wake up. Albeit, there also has to be good incentives, i.e. profits, for the companies to do business here and create jobs. It’s a balance, but don’t think the fat cats staying rich is the only answer. It’s called supply in demand not demand in supply. New flash, most of the jobs in America are not created by people who will be effected by most tax laws. They’re either stock holders or foreign investors. Income tax laws will not affect them in the same ways that you understand. They also have ways of shielding their income from high taxes.

The republicans are trying to scare any Joe that "thinks" he's rich into protecting his income. The fact is no person on this forum is rich enough to be affected in any substantial way by tax laws. Only a small percentage will change. The people, companies and foreign investors lobbing congress are the ones that will be effected. New flash, they have already picked sides and are funding this whole shebang.

You’re right by saying the government shouldn’t be into all these institutions, they should be private. Society is not ready to do what it has to do though. There are a ton of things we should do for ourselves instead of the government doing them. We should pick our brothers up and feed them and make them well. Not judge their life and see if we deem them appropriate for help. The only criteria is to make sure you treat others well. If we did that there would be no need for any institutions.

That won’t happen for a long, long time.

Who decides who needs real help, and who is stiffing the system and defrauding us? Thats a huge deal. Just creating the organization that makes those decisions is quite the undertaking. And defining the needy, not the lazy. Who decides?

Wait a second, their is no criteria now but we still hand out cash when folks ask for it, regardless of need. Big industry, Big farm, Big banking all get a "hand up". Means more govt, be careful what you wish for.

[ErikS]

Seems like EM is paying their fair share, 2-1 tax to profit. If that was the ratio for an individual....youd be screaming, no?

Meh ... 3rd quarter 2008 profit was $14.8 Billion. I know one employee who paid around $50,000 in taxes last year

[7 VII 7]

Meh ... 3rd quarter 2008 profit was $14.8 Billion. I know one employee who paid around $50,000 in taxes last year

yeah my GF's brother's wife works for Exxon

[Pops Racer]

Meh ... 3rd quarter 2008 profit was $14.8 Billion. I know one employee who paid around $50,000 in taxes last year

WOOOOOWWWW!

Thats an ass load of money! He was supporting a family of 4 somewhere.

[ErikS]

yeah my GF's brother's wife works for Exxon

I'm your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roomate.

[DonutsDemise]

I probably shouldn't have brought mentally disabled into this, since I also believe in encouraging abortion plans for those known to be disabled pre-birth. As for Walmart, no one makes their employees work there. There's plenty of other stores that pay minimum wage as well.

Why shouldn't money be power? How else would you like to quantify power?

Do you participate in your town meetings? If you are unable to, do you at least wish you were there? (Only because I figure you'll ask me the same, however I'm away at college and unable to)

Do you have any goals of wealth and success? I'm talking about serious goals. If your answer is no to both of those, then we know why you have no power, and it should stay that way.

Wal-Mart pays their employees as little as possible and encourages them to go on welfare rather than giving them a decent wage. When you pass through towns in the south and mid west... what do you think has replaced every other store in town. Wal-Mart is the town center so it is the only option for people who work in businesses that Wal-Mart has overrun. Those supercenters are gigantic! They must take up 10 acres of land

Money shouldn't be power because you shouldn't be able to buy votes. Do you disagree?

I don't go to town meetings but maybe I should. I don't quantify my goals for success with money. I want to be a teacher and be a useful member of society. I don't care if I will never make six figures because of that.

WOOOOOWWWW!

Thats an ass load of money! He was supporting a family of 4 somewhere.

Think of it as rent to live in this great country since he made over $200,000 in that case.

[Boost_Junky]

Who decides who needs real help, and who is stiffing the system and defrauding us?

Well, this is a complex question. There are two parts.

1- Theologically

2- The laws of men through government

Theologically speaking anyone who is in need, and lacking something they should have to sustain their life would be a candidate for help. You would treat them they way you treat yourself. By helping, you would not look to your own advantage or reward. You would not look to them for thanks, your reward would come after life.

Leviticus 25:35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit.

In our times and with our government, the trick to answering that correctly would be getting many points of view and experience. The law would have to be written in a way that has checks and balances. No one would should be burden of the state. We should not become indebted to helping our needy, nor should we profit. I stress that by keeping these people in some form, stable, and on a basic level functional within our society, we are able to continue with our business.

Remember, it is our civility that allows us to be successful. As we grow our nation in wealth and technology, we cannot let our civil service become unimportant. Allow me to explain this in another way. A tree can be named by the fruit it gives. The quality of fruit is determined by the richness of soil, abundance of light, availability of water and strength of its branches. If the soil was barren, the fruit would be bad.

You existence and ability to sustain yourself depends on a large number of factors. Without them all, our life as we know it, would not be possible.

regardless of need…

A large portion of the people (companies) who lobby, influence and support our politicians were able to convince them that it was in our (the people of the United States) best interest to bail them out. Regardless if that was the true answer or not, their influence is stronger than our democracy. It is no different than asking a favor from the mafia, then having them knocking at your door later to return it. Our two party system is majorly flawed and true constitutionalist will agree. Candidates are brought into power by wealthy investors, foreign and domestic. These investors expect that their agendas be carried out through the office of the presidency and houses of congress. They paid for it, and if they NEED something, by their definition , they will get it.

Means more govt, be careful what you wish for.

I personally do not wish to be Governed. It is our lack of faith that makes us in need of it.

Money shouldn't be power because you shouldn't be able to buy votes. Do you disagree?

I agree. An excerpt from Anarchism 101 with Noam Chomsky,

Power, unless justified, is inherently illegitimate. The burden of proof is on those in authority to demonstrate why their elevated position is justified. If this burden can't be met, the authority in question should be dismantled. Authority for its own sake is inherently unjustified. An example of a legitimate authority is that exerted by an adult to prevent a young child from wandering into traffic.

[Fudge_Brownie]

Wal-Mart pays their employees as little as possible and encourages them to go on welfare rather than giving them a decent wage. When you pass through towns in the south and mid west... what do you think has replaced every other store in town. Wal-Mart is the town center so it is the only option for people who work in businesses that Wal-Mart has overrun. Those supercenters are gigantic! They must take up 10 acres of land

Money shouldn't be power because you shouldn't be able to buy votes. Do you disagree?

I don't go to town meetings but maybe I should. I don't quantify my goals for success with money. I want to be a teacher and be a useful member of society. I don't care if I will never make six figures because of that.

Think of it as rent to live in this great country since he made over $200,000 in that case.

Walmart exists BECAUSE of poor lazy people, it doesn't make people poor. And walmart isnt the only one paying as little as possible. Go visit a McD's, a 7/11, a BK, etc etc the list goes on. If you CHOSE to stay at Walmart for a career, it's not my fault you're lazy.

Then whatelse would you like to be power? I'll buy my vote with that instead. While you're at it, why don't you suggest a utopian society in which theres no poor, no guns, and violence. Because that's so realistic. If it makes you feel any better, I do think teachers should be paid more. However, I also don't want my kids being taught by commies who think we should get rid of money because it leads to power. And here you are bitchin about not having any power, say, vote, etc and you don't even go to a town meeting.

[Pops Racer]

Well, this is a complex question. There are two parts.

1- Theologically

2- The laws of men through government

Theologically speaking anyone who is in need, and lacking something they should have to sustain their life would be a candidate for help. You would treat them they way you treat yourself. By helping, you would not look to your own advantage or reward. You would not look to them for thanks, your reward would come after life.

Leviticus 25:35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit.

In our times and with our government, the trick to answering that correctly would be getting many points of view and experience. The law would have to be written in a way that has checks and balances. No one would should be burden of the state. We should not become indebted to helping our needy, nor should we profit. I stress that by keeping these people in some form, stable, and on a basic level functional within our society, we are able to continue with our business.

Remember, it is our civility that allows us to be successful. As we grow our nation in wealth and technology, we cannot let our civil service become unimportant. Allow me to explain this in another way. A tree can be named by the fruit it gives. The quality of fruit is determined by the richness of soil, abundance of light, availability of water and strength of its branches. If the soil was barren, the fruit would be bad.

You existence and ability to sustain yourself depends on a large number of factors. Without them all, our life as we know it, would not be possible.

A large portion of the people (companies) who lobby, influence and support our politicians were able to convince them that it was in our (the people of the United States) best interest to bail them out. Regardless if that was the true answer or not, their influence is stronger than our democracy. It is no different than asking a favor from the mafia, then having them knocking at your door later to return it. Our two party system is majorly flawed and true constitutionalist will agree. Candidates are brought into power by wealthy investors, foreign and domestic. These investors expect that their agendas be carried out through the office of the presidency and houses of congress. They paid for it, and if they NEED something, by their definition , they will get it.

I personally do not wish to be Governed. It is our lack of faith that makes us in need of it.

I agree. An excerpt from Anarchism 101 with Noam Chomsky,

Power, unless justified, is inherently illegitimate. The burden of proof is on those in authority to demonstrate why their elevated position is justified. If this burden can't be met, the authority in question should be dismantled. Authority for its own sake is inherently unjustified. An example of a legitimate authority is that exerted by an adult to prevent a young child from wandering into traffic.

How much can we trust human nature? We all know if given half a chance many of us will do dastardly things to advance our positions. Thats why a pure communism will never work. Many will just sit on their butts and drain the system without putting in. Maybe our culture is so far gone from things like honor, honesty, and humility that we can't get it back. Enter Theology, stage right.

It's all the Free Masons fault. And all the frat boys.

Very well stated, by the way

[cheapwagon]

quoting someone's entire rant to highlight one sentence...priceless.

[Pops Racer]

quoting someone's entire rant to highlight one sentence...priceless.

Flying in for his first post to make dumb commentary off topic...doosh.

[magicaljake]

i agree with that... nice analogy chuck

[DonutsDemise]

Walmart exists BECAUSE of poor lazy people, it doesn't make people poor. And walmart isnt the only one paying as little as possible. Go visit a McD's, a 7/11, a BK, etc etc the list goes on. If you CHOSE to stay at Walmart for a career, it's not my fault you're lazy.

Then whatelse would you like to be power? I'll buy my vote with that instead. While you're at it, why don't you suggest a utopian society in which theres no poor, no guns, and violence. Because that's so realistic. If it makes you feel any better, I do think teachers should be paid more. However, I also don't want my kids being taught by commies who think we should get rid of money because it leads to power. And here you are bitchin about not having any power, say, vote, etc and you don't even go to a town meeting.

yeah, walmart exists because of poor people not capitalism... i think they are all intertwined. and I'm not a communist although would that be such a horrible thing? blindly believing in capitalism is just as bad. isn't it my first amendment right to think what i want and disagree with our government? i don't care about not having "power." i have my own happiness.

a utopian society would be horrible! i mean, people on an even keel?! what is this? a kibbutz? i want guns and violence and my kids to get shot while they are begging for money to go to college. thanks for thinking that teachers should be paid more, that makes me feel really good inside, not that it matters. do you attend town meetings? and if so do you participate? what's the difference? i live in a city and i'm one voice that can only represent myself and i wouldn't be so selfish as to try to change policies to benefit myself.