Gonna Rant.

[Che'_Moderator]

Well unless you want to rant back I guess.

First off, I really do not care what other people believe. This goes for religion, politics, family and so on. I may not to agree with it, but if you want to worship a can of WD40 on a stick knock yourself out. Also there are very few people I just cannot get along with. Lots of people piss me off but that’s life. But I am getting really sick of this whole Iraq crap. In the interest of fairness, my opinion of fairness, I wills stick to facts I can back up and leave my somewhat to the right opinion out of this. Lets start with us being in Iraq. Like it, hate it, don’t care. Does the average American think it is a stupid idea to be there? By the statistics, yes. Now. This is 2004. In 2001 65-82% of Americans thought we should invade Iraq. Most polls, I found say 79%. Go google “approval, ratings, Iraq, war, 2001” if you want to verify these numbers. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. Were in Iraq, we cannot just leave. If we do, you will see some of the worst acts of humanity imaginable. Those are facts. Were there, no lets make the best of it that we can.

My next complaint is non-strategists and civilians quoting KIA numbers. These numbers are so easy to manipulate. Lets take them at face value though. Lets assume every KIA is an actual combat associated death, not a tire exploding death. You know why we die over there? Politics. It’s that simple. Again its fact not opinion. This is not a right or left issue. It’s a political issue. When we are negotiating UN policy do you really think anyone is listening to generals and our troops? No, they are considered but have no direct say. So once you cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war, should politicians have any say? You want example. Ok past ones are easy. Vietnam. We let entire battalions become surrounded because we wanted to test the theory of air re-supply and support. Some of our dug in fortified positions being over run were not accidents. People died because other people in Washington made stupid decisions. Mogadishu also comes to mind. We could have saved countless lives, both american and non americans, if we have used APCs. We had access to them, but due to politics we did not sue them. On the other hand there are times like in WWII when politicians were needed to rein in Macarthur and Patton when they wanted to keep pushing west and east. Politicians are there to assure war does not happen, and stop any unnecessary loss of life. But when it hits the fan and diplomacy had degreaed military should have the final say. Its war, its about breaking toys and killing people. What am I getting at? Our ROE for Iraq, and conflicts in general, are crap. Examples included engagement with like or similar weapons. What does this mean? For those of you who don’t know, if your riding on top of a vehicle on patrols manning a .50 cal machine gun and someone jumps in front of you with an AK-47 and opens fire, you cannot return fire. You must rack the machine gun and engage with your SMG or pistol. These are 18 year olds kids being told kill, but only under these terms. That’s why we are seeing an inflated causality number.

Body armor is not magic. I am sick of hearing how many lives would be saved if our troops had armor. A large number of KIAs were special ops and they have armor. Going beyond that, take the total US causality number and subtract people killed by tire explosions, being run over and so on. Now subtract people blown up with explosives. FYI for those whom do not know. NIJ 4 armor will not stop a grenade or car bomb. Military standard 662F even states this. Now remove people killed via extremity wounds. Lastly there is the fact the Kalashnikov, ak-47, fire a 7.62 round not the US standard 5.56mm round the m16 uses. 7.62 in blended metal is the standard round for the Iraqis. 7.62 is a lot more powerful 3570 flbs verses the 5.56 at around 1379 flbs. Even with armor this is a very hard event to survive. We will not even go into multiple strikes. The number or lives actually savable with armor is very small. Know what most troops in Vietnam did with their armor? Sat on it in the helo.

Lastly “our poor troops and reservist over in Iraq". Their paid troops. We are an all-volunteer army. Every person who has died knew it could happen and accepted it. Now the American people must also accept it. When you opt for a career in the military, you’re joining a force whose sole job is to kill. That simple. I don’t care what job, your there to help make the force a more efficient killing machine. It’s not pretty to think about, but it’s the truth. As for the reservist. The lost in the dice roll. During peacetime the reserves is a sweet deal. Good money for only 4 days of work a month. When you join, you join knowing basically your rolling the bones. If you’re lucky your work maybe 100 days your whole stint and make some good money. If your not lucky, your going wheels up. They took all the rewards for all those years in peacetime. It’s now time the pony up and I think most of them realize it and have no problem with it.

Iraq is not WWIII, its not a left right deal. We went, we screwed up, now we have to clean up. Support the Darn troops, support the people who had to make the hard decision to send them and support the families. Were there, protect time is over. Your voice was heard but we went anyways. Were not leaving anytime soon. Were still in Korea aren’t we. Still in Spain, still in Italy, still in Cuba.............

[theunderlord]

rant on brother! testify!

[InlineTurbo]

Amen.

Also while you are at it if you are reading this howabout helping out a bit by adopting a soldier.

http://www.operationac.com/

[jross]

I think the big problem most of us who are anti-Iraq war are having is that Shrub blatantly lied to the American public about why we were going to war, and our soldiers are dying as a result. I realize that military service isn't about drinking beer and chasing skirt, and playing with assault weapons, but I think it's stupid to waste the lives of the men and women in arms. Yes, I'm sure some of the ones run over would have met their demise over here, and surprisingly, I actually do support our troops over there (well, if sending care packages to family counts.. but we send enough that they share), but that doesn't mean I like the dishonesty behind the war. If they had been honest about their motives, fine... now they just made us look like an jerk in the international arena, and squandered the goodwill of the rest of the world. Great going.

[Che'_Moderator]

I think the big problem most of us who are anti-Iraq war are having is that Shrub blatantly lied to the American public about why we were going to war, and our soldiers are dying as a result. I realize that military service isn't about drinking beer and chasing skirt, and playing with assault weapons, but I think it's stupid to waste the lives of the men and women in arms. Yes, I'm sure some of the ones run over would have met their demise over here, and surprisingly, I actually do support our troops over there (well, if sending care packages to family counts.. but we send enough that they share), but that doesn't mean I like the dishonesty behind the war. If they had been honest about their motives, fine... now they just made us look like an jerk in the international arena, and squandered the goodwill of the rest of the world. Great going.

←

Three things:

1. Maybe we was going on the best info he had at the time.

2. Approval rating for the war was huge at the time.

3. Maybe just maybe we are their to stabalize that region. Ever think of that. being Iraq does sway things more back to a point of balance.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Your goverment lies to you. Period. Hell look at Clinton. He lied about something as something as simple as who he was putting his dick in. That didn't make him a bad president. He got the job done.

[theunderlord]

He lied about something as something as simple as who he was putting his dick in.

←

Dude, I'd lie about jammin' that land monster...

[jross]

1) I doubt it, evidence shows otherwise

2) That's true, but we've firmly established the American people are I mean, look, they're polarized over Bush vs. Kerry...

3) That's fine, and I'm all for that. If they had said that was why, I'd be behind them. They didn't, though.

[InlineTurbo]

Please give a quoted example where Bush Lied about Iraq. That is quoted from a major newspaper and not Al Jazeera. This whole Bush lied crap is wearing really thin considering John F'ing Kerry voted for the war and had as good of intelligence as the president did. The CIC does NOT keep other people from seeing intelligence. Bush NEVER said that Sadam was an imminent threat and everybody agreed that he had WMDs and we have found some.

I can't believe an intelligent person like you can still be fooled by the Bush lied crap. It is designed to cover Kerry's political jerk for voting both ways and cover the Democrats behinds with their base for being pro remove a dictator for once.

[Che'_Moderator]

Dude, I'd lie about jammin' that land monster...

←

Is Hilary really better? Talk about spineless

[Che'_Moderator]

Please give a quoted example where Bush Lied about Iraq.  That is quoted from a major newspaper and not Al Jazeera.  This whole Bush lied crap is wearing really thin considering John F'ing Kerry voted for the war and had as good of intelligence as the president did.  The CIC does NOT keep other people from seeing intelligence.  Bush NEVER said that Sadam was an imminent threat and everybody agreed that he had WMDs and we have found some.

I can't believe an intelligent person like you can still be fooled by the Bush lied crap.  It is designed to cover Kerry's political jerk for voting both ways and cover the Democrats behinds with their base for being pro remove a dictator for once.

←

Agreed. I am all of people being Pro-Kerry or even Anti-Bush. But for god sakes get your facts straight,

[theunderlord]

Is Hilary really better? Talk about spineless

←

ooh... good point... well done..

Dear God; please let the bad liberals go away...

[InlineTurbo]

1) I doubt it, evidence shows otherwise

Prove it. I'd like to see this evidence. Like Charles said. Monday morning quarterbacking is awefully easy.

[jross]

Please give a quoted example where Bush Lied about Iraq.  That is quoted from a major newspaper and not Al Jazeera.  This whole Bush lied crap is wearing really thin considering John F'ing Kerry voted for the war and had as good of intelligence as the president did.  The CIC does NOT keep other people from seeing intelligence.  Bush NEVER said that Sadam was an imminent threat and everybody agreed that he had WMDs and we have found some.

I can't believe an intelligent person like you can still be fooled by the Bush lied crap.  It is designed to cover Kerry's political jerk for voting both ways and cover the Democrats behinds with their base for being pro remove a dictator for once.

←

1) I hate Kerry almost as much as Bush, and I'm not a democrat

2) Show me one verified instance where we have found a WMD

3) Bush did lie. He lied when he claimed Iraq had WMDs (found one yet? Nope), he lied when he claimed Saddam had Al-Queda links, he's lied throughout the process.

Edited October 22, 2004 by jross

[jross]

Prove it. I'd like to see this evidence. Like Charles said. Monday morning quarterbacking is awefully easy.

←

There were a number of reports and documents that were in the public domain and in active discussion when the decision to invade Iraq was made which cast doubt upon the intelligence US and Britain were basing their decisions on. Go look through backissues of any major publication, and you'll see references. Maybe later, when I'm bored, I'll do it and post the articles for those of you too lazy to do your own research.

[theunderlord]

Do you have ANY idea how much Sarin gas it takes to kill thousands of people? NOT MUCH... You've got to know that it could be hidden anywhere in Iraq.

This is what would have happed if we didn't go after Sadaam; The liberals would be all excited that no american lives would have been lost, claiming it to be a huge vicotry for America. Then 6 months down the road, Sadaam and Iraq would have sold their nerve gas to Al-Queda, and then they would have used it on us... killing thousands of people. Then guess what would have happend? The Kerry bed-wetter coningency would have cried to the press about "what a tragedy that this happened, and if only we would have taken Sadaam out of power when we had the chance... " PUHH-LEASE...