drj434343 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Just finished up a long road trip from San Diego to Portland, lots of I-5 mountain passes in my 99 V70 T5M. I noticed a very disturbing problem. If I coast down a long grade with the car in gear but my foot off the gas to keep my speed in check, at the bottom of the hill, when I hit the gas for the first time in 2 or more minutes, I get a huge plume of white smoke out the tail pipe, which lasts for about 2 seconds, then completely disappears. I can't seem to make this cloud of smoke appear in any other circumstances, either at cold start up, or just hitting the gas hard during normal driving. For some reason, that long coast seems to build up something that then burns off when I reapply power.I've noticed the car does very slowly loose coolant, and also very slowly looses oil, however, there appears to be NO oil contamination in the coolant (which I have experience with and understand what it looks like), and NO coolant in the oil. I'm beginning to fear this is an "oh stuff" situation.Is that white smoke coolant or oil? Am I burning a small amount all the time, but only enough after a long coast to actually see it? Are we talking piston rings or head gasket? Would a compression test be worth my time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 The key is your idle time...Sounds like valve stem seals or possible guides. Classic symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesterKB Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Mr. Winky is correct in that under high vacuum conditions (going downhill with the throttle closed), oil is pulled in past the valve seals, but you usually see more of a very pail blue smoke not white that is more characteristic of antifreeze. In honesty, in some situations, there is almost no difference. The easiest way to tell which one would be to have someone follow you, and "sniff" the smoke. I'm sure you could tell the difference between the two if you’ve had much experience.Under high vacuum conditions it also might be possible for the engine to pull some antifreeze into the combustion chamber from the surrounding jacket. I'd think this is remote, but I guess possible, as I've read prior posts on the forum that the valve seals (above condition) are VERY reliable. I don't have enough experience (except the B20 engines) to say one way or another. Perhaps a radiator pressure bleed down test might yield better results than a compression test. Currently my biggest concern is you describe the smoke as white, and white is generally antifreeze, light blue is oil.Please keep us posted on your situation, and we’ll continue to make suggestions.Jerry01 V70 T5a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drj434343 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Jerry, thanks for your thoughts. I'm arranging to have someone follow me in the next few days and sniff the smoke. At this point, I could convince myself that it was pure white or slightly blue, they're usually so close. The only evidence I do have, that doesn't really contribute to either theory, is that I'm consuming both antifreeze and oil. Oil at about 1.3 qt. per 1000 miles, and antifreeze at about 0.5 qt. per 1000 miles. There are many places that oil could be going besides into my combustion chambers, but I'm not so sure about the antifreeze; seems like it would have to be a head gasket if I was burning the stuff.I've got a compression tester in the mail, so I'll have those numbers soon. One question in my mind is if one cylinder comes back with lower then expected pressure, could that indicate a failing valve stem seal, rather then a failing piston ring? Or would the stem seal not affect chamber compression?I'll consider a pressure down test, especially if it does look like the smoke is antifreeze. However, looking back in the car's records, I've noticed the previous owner complained of coolant loss as well, starting around 90K (now has 126K). Back then, the shop blindly replaced all hoses and put a brand new radiator in. I get the feeling it was a blanket shot gun repair, and that the problem he experienced is the same as what I have now. That also means my radiator is very new.Any other tests I can do in the mean time to help narrow this down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Either way if it is stem seals(which once again are know for) you have to pull the head. (actually you don't have to but recommended and look at the exhaust guides as well. Now you have a new headgasket(which I doubt is your issue) and the top end resealed. If you had a headgasket issue you would more than likely see smoking or overheating while climbing the hillsSeriously though they normally blow white smoke and it is oil. I know the general rule of thumb is diffrent but I have been tuning the wrench on these things since the introduction of the sidwinder 5.... in 93 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesterKB Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Either way if it is stem seals(which once again are know for)Mr. Winkey, I appreciate the comment on the valve seals. I don't have much experience on the newer Volvos, but had read several times in the forums that the opinions of others that they were "bullet proof". My personal experience with a variety of cars, is they are typically good for 100 -200K probably depending on tolerances during assembly. Can you do the "air pressure" trick to make the change w/o pulling the head on the newer Volvo's (mine ia an 01 V70)? I fixed cars to get through college back in the 60's when cars were really simple, and am now just a DIY, and some hot rodding, so I'm a bit out of my league on the newer cars. Can you comment on the rope trick (which I thought pretty clever) posted in the RWD Brickboard? Any other tricks for holding the crank during torque? I was going to make my own tool for the next TB change based on the factory design.Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I fixed cars to get through college back in the 60's when cars were really simple, and am now just a DIY, and some hot rodding, so I'm a bit out of my league on the newer cars. Can you comment on the rope trick (which I thought pretty clever) posted in the RWD Brickboard? Jerry, I cannot comment on procedures that have been used or posted. I only use my own procedures and sometimes I don't know what they are anymore in this industry? TFT in the RWD section is "only one" of our V.S. experts especially on RWD bricks. I only share what I know and have experienced. I enjoy theory, nice to see it used,common sense seems to be thrown out the window anymore! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesterKB Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Jerry, I cannot comment on procedures that have been used or posted. I only use my own procedures and sometimes I don't know what they are anymore in this industry? TFT in the RWD section is "only one" of our V.S. experts especially on RWD bricks. I only share what I know and have experienced. I enjoy theory, nice to see it used,common sense seems to be thrown out the window anymore! I understand perfectly. I used my own trick to hold the crank so I could torque to spec, but am always looking for new innovative ways to do things. I have a tendency to not "get outside the box" and stick with straight mechanics since I'm an engineer by trade. Initially I was not too fond of the rope trick because of the loading was all taken up on the one rod and piston pin, and haven't done the math to see what that would be, but intuition would lead me to believe it wouldn't be that bad, but was hoping to hear from some real world experience (it beats a sharp pencil everyday)!!!! It's the innovation of a mechanic to get things done efficiently that makes the grade for me when I talk shop. Otherwise I read / I learn when my experience hasn't been there yet, and I file for future reference.Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 20yrs turning the wrench 15 on my own Sometimes I feel I could physically choke an engineer!! No Offense!! Just a beverage induced vent! It's all about a learning process and somebody has to figure it out. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drj434343 Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 OK, I haven't completed a compression test yet, but I've had a friend follow me down a long hill this afternoon. I've got some more data.I'm almost positive it's oil. There seems to be a faint blue tint to the mostly white smoke, but more importantly, it doesn't smell like maple syrup at all. It has a acrid, burned earthy smell. I also discovered that in addition to getting a big plume of it after coasting down a long hill, I also get a smaller plume when I take off from a stop light and the car has been idling for more than 15 seconds or so. Also, if I just let the car idle, out of gear, and rev the engine, I get a little puff of the same smoke right after the RPM's peak and start to decline. Very slight, but it's there.Any theories as to where the oil could be coming from? Any other tests I can do besides a compression test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesterKB Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 OK, I haven't completed a compression test yet, but I've had a friend follow me down a long hill this afternoon. I've got some more data.I'm almost positive it's oil. There seems to be a faint blue tint to the mostly white smoke, but more importantly, it doesn't smell like maple syrup at all. It has a acrid, burned earthy smell. I also discovered that in addition to getting a big plume of it after coasting down a long hill, I also get a smaller plume when I take off from a stop light and the car has been idling for more than 15 seconds or so. Also, if I just let the car idle, out of gear, and rev the engine, I get a little puff of the same smoke right after the RPM's peak and start to decline. Very slight, but it's there.Any theories as to where the oil could be coming from? Any other tests I can do besides a compression test?My vote is still the valve seals, but I'd check very carefully if there is some kind of drip onto the exhaust, and it ends up being external. An eash check with a light and mirror to remove the obvious!Mr. Winky, my Dad would vent his frustration when working on the cars with a good cuss, and "Get the fricken engineer out here to show me how"! I too can relate to the frustration. While an engineer, I design ejection systems for military aircraft, but I'll bet out there on the flight line my name is being called out too! Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1steven Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Had the same problem, except more constant white smoke. Turned out to be the turbo! Replaced it with a new unit and no more smoke. Funny, because the dealer checked this for me when I had the car in for the ETM recall replacement and he said it was fine. My personal mechanic traced it down to the turbo with just slight blow by but enough to smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drj434343 Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 My vote is still the valve seals, but I'd check very carefully if there is some kind of drip onto the exhaust, and it ends up being external. An eash check with a light and mirror to remove the obvious!I've been over the outside of the engine and exhaust several times, its all dry except for a drip from a side seal on the turbo itself (not the oil lines, on the housing itself). The other reason I know it isn't burning on the outside of the exhaust is that with the car parked, I can blow myself in the face with the white smoke when revving the engine. It definitely it coming right out of the tail pipe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drj434343 Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Had the same problem, except more constant white smoke. Turned out to be the turbo! Replaced it with a new unit and no more smoke. Funny, because the dealer checked this for me when I had the car in for the ETM recall replacement and he said it was fine. My personal mechanic traced it down to the turbo with just slight blow by but enough to smoke.This idea came up somewhere in my research as well. What I don't know is if the turbo when failing is capable of burning the amount of oil I loose (1.3 qt/1000 miles). If it is, then I may be in luck.Can anyone explain the principle behind a failing turbo and how it could burn oil? I understand turbos in the macro sense, but don't know the inner mechanics enough to guess. Is there a test I can perform to get an idea of it's condition?If my compression test later this week shows good health, then my top guess will be the turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 While an engineer, I design ejection systems for military aircraft, but I'll bet out there on the flight line my name is being called out too! JerryJerry, "Goose" did hit the canopy in Hollywood made "Top Gun" factual or not still possible? Picture that X's 100 in this industry anymore! Just the stupid mistakes made engineering wise and possibly because they were short funded or more like corporate say's......."we have lots of these thingies'... can you work them into the current design"....... I don't know? Sounds like you have a cool job and the responsibility factor probably equates to a professional in this current industry! I didn't mean to challenge on the design, just basically wanted to say I'm in the trenches and only know from experience." I think the vehicle needs stem seals and possibly guides. Wouldn't hurt to try an oil trap with breather system service before pullin the head. But symptoms on the valve oil leakage/breech are all there. This is when I drive drunk so I'm not really sure what I type sometimes. My hobby in outdoor model trains deals with "civil" engineering every change of season. Thanks for the challenge's and theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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