Volvo5.0 Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Apologies for not reading all this thread but I just logged in for the first time in a while - nice looking car and not many big power AWD's. Are you running any sort of water/methanol injection? With a modest (quite small really) Radtec intercooler and simple Aquamist kit running 80:20 Methanol/Water through a 1mm jet my IAT's are ~3C below ambient. Running my 19t at a peak of 21psi (falling to 17psi at 6000 rpm) we achieve significantly more ignition advance than this before the ecu pulls timing - though I wonder if we have higher octane fuel in the UK? I haven't reliably timed a 60-120mph run but 60-100 (GPS) takes 5.6 secs at an ambient of 70F - that a full tank and no passengers (1750kg). My fuelling is now low 11's under load rather than high 10's (lower IAT's have helped) but we have repeatedly added advance from 3000 to 7500 rpm with incremental improvements in 60-100 times each time. I have tried running leaner (high 11's to low 12's) with a consequently softer advance curve but in my application performance was much flatter. What is your timing like at 7k under full boost/load. You using TT? I'd also like to know how much timing you're able to run. I might try to add a couple of degrees. I just looked at my logs and also at my timing map in TT. Looks like my logs pretty much reflect what my maps are asking for, so I'm seeing little or no timing pull with meth injection. I'm sure the 80% meth helps bump the octane some. Have you always run 80/20? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 What is your timing like at 7k under full boost/load. You using TT? My car is a 2002 ME7 so no DIY tuning available. It's a custom MTE map and most recently we increased the 7000 ignition target to 33 degrees - which it makes happily. This is running 99 octane fuel (Shell VPower)with 10% methanol in the tank and Aquamist. Bear in in mind that my turbo is well outside it's efficiency island at that rpm so there is an opportunity to increase advance significantly. Under load from 3000 rpm the advance values climb steadily from 15 degrees and the performance has improved with each incremental addition of advance to this stage. I'd also like to know how much timing you're able to run. I might try to add a couple of degrees. I just looked at my logs and also at my timing map in TT. Looks like my logs pretty much reflect what my maps are asking for, so I'm seeing little or no timing pull with meth injection. I'm sure the 80% meth helps bump the octane some. Have you always run 80/20? I have run all mixes between 100% water and 100% methanol. 100% water was terrible as it effectively ran way too rich. I then swithched to neat Meth and added water until I felt a slight hesitation as the kit activated (at 0.8 bar). I was happy running neat meth but a friend pointed out that some water will aid in cylinder cooling on track. My car has closed loop fuelling at WOT unlike earlier cars and the ecu leans out the fuelling to compensate for the methanol being burnt. This does not happen with earlier cars so getting the mix right is more of a hassle but the difference the Aquamist makes to my IATs/advance curve and performance is significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Apologies for not reading all this thread but I just logged in for the first time in a while - nice looking car and not many big power AWD's. Are you running any sort of water/methanol injection? With a modest (quite small really) Radtec intercooler and simple Aquamist kit running 80:20 Methanol/Water through a 1mm jet my IAT's are ~3C below ambient. Running my 19t at a peak of 21psi (falling to 17psi at 6000 rpm) we achieve significantly more ignition advance than this before the ecu pulls timing - though I wonder if we have higher octane fuel in the UK? I haven't reliably timed a 60-120mph run but 60-100 (GPS) takes 5.6 secs at an ambient of 70F - that a full tank and no passengers (1750kg). My fuelling is now low 11's under load rather than high 10's (lower IAT's have helped) but we have repeatedly added advance from 3000 to 7500 rpm with incremental improvements in 60-100 times each time. I have tried running leaner (high 11's to low 12's) with a consequently softer advance curve but in my application performance was much flatter. Thanks for the input. No WI at this time. The system I have in place just doesn't work for me. Have to determine if it's pump pressure - in unloaded tests (no positive pressure acting on the nozzle) I get a constant 100psi, but if I leave the system on, but not active, the pump pressure drops to about 80psi. My nozzle is Aquamist 0.7mm. As I'm sure you're aware, 19T power curve is very different - your peak will be at least 1000rpm lower, which does allow timing to recover in the higher rpms anyway - and the CFM's you are seeing will be significantly lower. I can get much better timing just by lowering boost to 18psi, which would still translate into higher CFM's than a 19T @ 21. Few questions: 1mm nozzle? Do you mean 7mm? (my bad, see further on) Do you have any actual timing logs to share? I'm curious to see exactly how much timing you are getting in similar load ranges. I'd be curious to see what kind of 60-120 times you could make, 60-100 is always easier to reach than the extra 20 up top. My AWD 60-100 is 5sec or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thanks for the input. No WI at this time. The system I have in place just doesn't work for me. Have to determine if it's pump pressure - in unloaded tests (no positive pressure acting on the nozzle) I get a constant 100psi, but if I leave the system on, but not active, the pump pressure drops to about 80psi. My nozzle is Aquamist 7mm. As I'm sure you're aware, 19T power curve is very different - your peak will be at least 1000rpm lower, which does allow timing to recover in the higher rpms anyway - and the CFM's you are seeing will be significantly lower. I can get much better timing just by lowering boost to 18psi, which would still translate into higher CFM's than a 19T @ 21. Few questions: 1mm nozzle? Do you mean 7mm? Do you have any actual timing logs to share? I'm curious to see exactly how much timing you are getting in similar load ranges. I'd be curious to see what kind of 60-120 times you could make, 60-100 is always easier to reach than the extra 20 up top. My AWD 60-100 is 5sec or less. Aquamist jets range from 0.3 to 1.0mm - I use a 1.0mm. I will work on the logs and complete a GPS 60-120 - I got around 11 secs on my speedo last year but it's over-reading. Agree on the small turbo influence with respect to increasing advance at the top end. My Aquamist kit is a 1s and just activates with a hobbs switch. ME7 provides an effective failsafe but you may need a better aftermarket method of reducing boost/advance with an earlier car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Aquamist jets range from 0.3 to 1.0mm - I use a 1.0mm. I will work on the logs and complete a GPS 60-120 - I got around 11 secs on my speedo last year but it's over-reading. Agree on the small turbo influence with respect to increasing advance at the top end. My Aquamist kit is a 1s and just activates with a hobbs switch. ME7 provides an effective failsafe but you may need a better aftermarket method of reducing boost/advance with an earlier car. I must have misremembered the nozzle sizing - mine must be .7mm, then, since it's an aquamist nozzle. I also have a .8mm, so perhaps I need to try that also. What volume/pressure pump are you using with it? Like several others on here, I use a Apexi AVC-R for boost control, it's very stable once dialed in to the specific turbo. Do you have any logged timing data to share? It would help to actually see what you are getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I must have misremembered the nozzle sizing - mine must be .7mm, then, since it's an aquamist nozzle. I also have a .8mm, so perhaps I need to try that also. What volume/pressure pump are you using with it? Like several others on here, I use a Apexi AVC-R for boost control, it's very stable once dialed in to the specific turbo. Do you have any logged timing data to share? It would help to actually see what you are getting. No worries - there is some flow vs pressure data on the net for aquamist jets. The 1s pump is a high pressure low volum affair and is no available new. I measured flow by running it for 1 minute into a pop bottle and got 350cc - under manifold pressure this would be less as the net pressure drop accross the jet is reduced but you get the idea. If that pump fails I may get it serviced or use a Devils Own kit. My boost is ECU controlled as nothing can be altered outside the ECU's say-so with ME7 - and it is very stable (as is wide band fuelling). My knowledge of the timing figures is through viewing live data and limited logging but I will see what I can rustle up. I have been struggling with an ELM327 tool but so far failing. May get an Android phone app to log it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublin14 Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the input. No WI at this time. The system I have in place just doesn't work for me. Have to determine if it's pump pressure - in unloaded tests (no positive pressure acting on the nozzle) I get a constant 100psi, but if I leave the system on, but not active, the pump pressure drops to about 80psi. My nozzle is Aquamist 7mm. As I'm sure you're aware, 19T power curve is very different - your peak will be at least 1000rpm lower, which does allow timing to recover in the higher rpms anyway - and the CFM's you are seeing will be significantly lower. I can get much better timing just by lowering boost to 18psi, which would still translate into higher CFM's than a 19T @ 21. Few questions: 1mm nozzle? Do you mean 7mm? Do you have any actual timing logs to share? I'm curious to see exactly how much timing you are getting in similar load ranges. I'd be curious to see what kind of 60-120 times you could make, 60-100 is always easier to reach than the extra 20 up top. My AWD 60-100 is 5sec or less. The Devils Own kit I just got comes with a 200psi pump that is adjustable for 250psi. I was told by DO that I should run 250 psi with a .7 or bigger. They have the pumps for $119 as far as I remember. The pump you have I think its safe to say is no use for what you want. Edited June 9, 2011 by dublin14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 No worries - there is some flow vs pressure data on the net for aquamist jets. The 1s pump is a high pressure low volum affair and is no available new. I measured flow by running it for 1 minute into a pop bottle and got 350cc - under manifold pressure this would be less as the net pressure drop accross the jet is reduced but you get the idea. If that pump fails I may get it serviced or use a Devils Own kit. My boost is ECU controlled as nothing can be altered outside the ECU's say-so with ME7 - and it is very stable (as is wide band fuelling). My knowledge of the timing figures is through viewing live data and limited logging but I will see what I can rustle up. I have been struggling with an ELM327 tool but so far failing. May get an Android phone app to log it. You can get rebuild kit's for the old 1s pumps. They are top notch. As well "Perrin" also has a 1s style pump (I believe a-mist was making them). I think if I were to run any other pump than the Aquamist, I would still use the jets from the Aquamist. http://www.howertonengineering.net/categories/PARTS/Jets-and-Tubing/ Hussein check out that website. The price isn't too bad and the Howerton guys are top notch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 The Devils Own kit I just got comes with a 200psi pump that is adjustable for 250psi. I was told by DO that I should run 250 psi with a .7 or bigger. They have the pumps for $119 as far as I remember. The pump you have I think its safe to say is no use for what you want. OK. I'll take care of the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 I think if I were to run any other pump than the Aquamist, I would still use the jets from the Aquamist. http://www.howertonengineering.net/categories/PARTS/Jets-and-Tubing/ Hussein check out that website. The price isn't too bad and the Howerton guys are top notch! Thanks for the link! I do already use Aquamist - the USA Aquamist importer is only about 20mins from me in NJ, so I buy all their parts direct. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 The Devils Own kit I just got comes with a 200psi pump that is adjustable for 250psi. I was told by DO that I should run 250 psi with a .7 or bigger. They have the pumps for $119 as far as I remember. The pump you have I think its safe to say is no use for what you want. Bid on one from CoolingMist, same 200-250psi Shurflo based pump, that way I can just swap out what I have installed now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks for the link! I do already use Aquamist - the USA Aquamist importer is only about 20mins from me in NJ, so I buy all their parts direct. Lucky! Haha I had to have my stuff overnighted lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublin14 Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Be interesting to see what happens now with a proper performing pump and see what you log for IATs and timing compared to now. Plus, no doubt you should be over 370WHP with WMI dialed in if you already did 355whp without.;) Edited June 9, 2011 by dublin14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 What are you using to log timing etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 What are you using to log timing etc? I use Innovate SSI-4 for four channels, and the OT-1 for 3 channels (incl timing) via OBDII; ISO-9141 is too slow for more than 3 channels; you should be able to get more than that over the later protocol used in an '02. I don't have my LMA-3 hooked up yet, for EGT, IAT, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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