HeavyIron Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'm just saying...ain't NO way he's getting full timing advance (more likely quite a bit of retard) on pump gas at 23-26psi unless he has meth injection running 100% of the time, or he only fills up with 100+ octane. Car would probably be faster with less boost and more timing advance on pump gas. ...unless there's something magical about Motronic that I don't know about, anyway. heh. 45 degree ambient temp the night I was running. the day I had my car dynoed (few weeks before) I t did 40+ degrees of adv at 7500 rpm peak hp of 294 was made at just over 7000rpm running 16psi b/c factory wastegate actuator would not stay closed. Speaking of your car, where's that dyno ? and to OP, you hit 7500 with your auto on what tune ? MTE tune. Marco called me back 25psi tune with 7500 rpm limiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 45 degree ambient temp the night I was running. the day I had my car dynoed (few weeks before) I t did 40+ degrees of adv at 7500 rpm peak hp of 294 was made at just over 7000rpm running 16psi b/c factory wastegate actuator would not stay closed. MTE tune. Marco called me back 25psi tune with 7500 rpm limiter If you're making peak power at over 7000rpm with a TD04 and stock cams, something is up. That makes pretty much no sense at all. 40 degrees of timing advance at 16psi also sounds... odd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyIron Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Im not trying to be harsh. I am just saying. I know guys running 30+lbs on single and twin turbo cars and trucks and dont run such a hard spring in the gate. My brother in law has a twin turbo small block with each turbo running 25lbs and he only uses a 12lb gate spring in each. Just because you want to run 22lbs does not mean you use a 22lb wastegate. The boost curve will be to sharp and will cause problems. Boost has got to come on progressively or the ecu cannot factor for it. When you brake boosted to 2500 you already had 20lbs built up and then you just let it go on the poor motor just getting up to speed. Kind of like swinging a 12lb sledge hammer at a pinata. If I remember in your build you used OEM pistons and forged rods. The pistons are the weak link. If you used a stock rod you could put a string on it and shoot arrows from it by now. The problem now is you have a peep hole in your piston. I got lucky- I will post up pics as soon as I can find the cable for my camera. Pistons, cylinder walls, and valves all look superb. their is a 1/4" piece of hg missing around cyl #2 where it blew out. the head bolts were measured and the bolts had stretched a couple .001's around cyl 1 &2. Basically, the head lifted off. I have seen it happen in boosted hondas and eclipses. Thankfully the head gasket gave out first and pressurized the cooling system blowing out my radiator. If the gasket had held, My valves and pistons would be destroyed. I count my blessings. I will have to spend more time tracking down my misfire / detonation problem. I agree my WG may play a part, but it is not all of it b/c the problem was there prior. For the non believer here is my first run dyno @ 16 psi max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 To say that's a weird dyno would be an understatement. Not sure how much it proves. It doesn't make much sense. I have seen many MTE tunes including my own and even with big turbos they drop off because Marco has the last rpm point at 6200 with (too) much advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeraldJ Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 To say that's a weird dyno would be an understatement. Not sure how much it proves. It doesn't make much sense. I have seen many MTE tunes including my own and even with big turbos they drop off because Marco has the last rpm point at 6200 with (too) much advance. That and your MTE tune runs perfectly in my car You did get lucky, I would still take that wastegate spring and toss it out for something a bit smaller. 15lb at the most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I got lucky- I will post up pics as soon as I can find the cable for my camera. Pistons, cylinder walls, and valves all look superb. their is a 1/4" piece of hg missing around cyl #2 where it blew out. the head bolts were measured and the bolts had stretched a couple .001's around cyl 1 &2. Basically, the head lifted off. I have seen it happen in boosted hondas and eclipses. Thankfully the head gasket gave out first and pressurized the cooling system blowing out my radiator. If the gasket had held, My valves and pistons would be destroyed. I count my blessings. Did you check flatness of the head and block? I am still sure it had nothing to do with the bolts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 To say that's a weird dyno would be an understatement. Not sure how much it proves. It doesn't make much sense. I have seen many MTE tunes including my own and even with big turbos they drop off because Marco has the last rpm point at 6200 with (too) much advance. Jan said the same thing about the fuel calibration point - 6200 is the last plot. In all my data logging, timing is significantly closer to TDC once you go WOT ... the timing advance here is at this 4/5 shift point, otherwise it's only a few degrees advance.. time RPM AFR MAF speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeraldJ Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 update? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 To say that's a weird dyno would be an understatement. Not sure how much it proves. It doesn't make much sense. I have seen many MTE tunes including my own and even with big turbos they drop off because Marco has the last rpm point at 6200 with (too) much advance. I was trying to think of how to say the above- the dyno plot is just... weird. The whole scenario just doesn't add up/ I don't know why, and I'm not saying the guy's car sucks or anything, but something weird is going on. My T6 makes peak power lower than that, with a tube header, hotter cams, and a hugeass turbo. Did all of the dyno plots look like that? Mind you if they were all on the same setup the same day they might all have the same 'whateveritis" throwing them off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volvo500bhp Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 To say that's a weird dyno would be an understatement. Not sure how much it proves. It doesn't make much sense. I have seen many MTE tunes including my own and even with big turbos they drop off because Marco has the last rpm point at 6200 with (too) much advance. Hi Jc How much ignition did your car have when it used to be on an MTE map ? it would seem this is not the first mte tuned car that has lunched a headgasket... Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Hi Jc How much ignition did your car have when it used to be on an MTE map ? it would seem this is not the first mte tuned car that has lunched a headgasket... Russ I would have thought mte's (or anybodys) tune would be irrelevant to the HG issue when the OP is running a 22psi wastegate. I checked mine last night and it starts to open at 4-5 psi. I hold 1.4 bar to 5000 rpm and then it tails off as the turbo gives up. You just don't need that much actuator strength and any subtle boost control would have been out the window. Interested in the lunched HG's though - who was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I think it may not have been the bolts solely, but a combination of things :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Hi Jc How much ignition did your car have when it used to be on an MTE map ? it would seem this is not the first mte tuned car that has lunched a headgasket... Russ Hey Russ 27 degs BTDC at 6200 (the last rpm plot). Mind you my car never had an issue with it and made great power, but MTE relies on some timing pull halfway to end up with an acceptable value at high rpm's. A better way to tune is avoid timing pull anywhere and use the correct values. MTE's way takes less time to tune no doubt, but it relies on timing being pulled and ending up considerably lower than what's programmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jardon Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Hey Russ 27 degs BTDC at 6200 (the last rpm plot). Mind you my car never had an issue with it and made great power, but MTE relies on some timing pull halfway to end up with an acceptable value at high rpm's. A better way to tune is avoid timing pull anywhere and use the correct values. MTE's way takes less time to tune no doubt, but it relies on timing being pulled and ending up considerably lower than what's programmed. I have no idea when it comes to timing what a desirable set of values might be. I remember you saying a while ago before I fitted my 19t that I'd be better off running 1.3 bar than 1.4 - is this because you have to pull timing at that level of boost? What are you calling the correct values? I might get hold of Tim Williams VCT and look at the timing one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotuner Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have no idea when it comes to timing what a desirable set of values might be. I remember you saying a while ago before I fitted my 19t that I'd be better off running 1.3 bar than 1.4 - is this because you have to pull timing at that level of boost? What are you calling the correct values? I might get hold of Tim Williams VCT and look at the timing one day. I can't remember all the settings that the VCT can log, but you need to know whether or not timing is being pulled. If the VCT doesn't tell you how much ignition retard is applied, then you will need to know what the timing is set to in the map and compare it to what the VCT is reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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