Starter Runs While Car Is Running

[BEJinFBK]

I pulled it awhile ago and it's sparkly clean inside.

Any idea on how to test it?

Blown fuse or not, the idea that the starter keeps going after starting the car is my biggest concern.

I'm fairly certain the two are related- or one would think so.

I appreciate you trying to help me.

My real question is - What happens with the relay removed?

Pull it, - leaving the green wire connected to the starter -

then jumper the starter solenoid with the key on and see what happens.

This will give you a better idea of whether the

problem is before or after the starter relay.

[MadeInJapan]

With the relay removed the car will not start...otherwise, it starts in position II or position III of the ignition.

I now have a regular fuse in the 10A spot (not wired to ground- never understood that anyway)...then put the key in position II, and touch the wires from the starter solenoid to the green wire and it starts...and then I let the wires dangle. The 10A fuse is no longer blowing!

I'm of the conclusion that one of 3 things are happening now:

1. The new starter was installed incorrectly with a live 12V wire running to it so it will start in most conditions (unrelated to ignition switch).

2. There is a definite shorted live wire in the circuit- causing the constant start position as long as the ignition is more than auxiliary (past position I- therefore position II or III).

3. The tumbler portion of the ignition switch is broken....

If #3 condition is the culprit, I need to take off the electronic portion of the ignition switch and visually observe how much movement there is when actually turning the key in the ignition. If for instance, turning the key from position II to III or vice versa makes no difference, the tumbler portion of the ignition is broken and should either be repaired or replaced (big bucks!!).

[CBoosT5]

It IS the solenoid. Regardless of it being new. You obviously checked voltage at the starter solenoid already/ everywhere else. I would replace the starter. They get stuck as they start to fail, or were made wrong. Your telling me you bought a BRAND new starter for your car, they are stupid money. Replace it.

[Ghost Shadow]

With the relay removed the car will not start...otherwise, it starts in position II or position III of the ignition.

I now have a regular fuse in the 10A spot (not wired to ground- never understood that anyway)...then put the key in position II, and touch the wires from the starter solenoid to the green wire and it starts...and then I let the wires dangle. The 10A fuse is no longer blowing!

I'm of the conclusion that one of 3 things are happening now:

1. The new starter was installed incorrectly with a live 12V wire running to it so it will start in most conditions (unrelated to ignition switch).

2. There is a definite shorted live wire in the circuit- causing the constant start position as long as the ignition is more than auxiliary (past position I- therefore position II or III).

3. The tumbler portion of the ignition switch is broken....

If #3 condition is the culprit, I need to take off the electronic portion of the ignition switch and visually observe how much movement there is when actually turning the key in the ignition. If for instance, turning the key from position II to III or vice versa makes no difference, the tumbler portion of the ignition is broken and should either be repaired or replaced (big bucks!!).

stop chasing the rpoblem. lets fix it. i dont do MVS so you will get your fix here LOL.

*take a T15 and take the cover off of the steering column. 3 bolts

* get a TEST LIGHT, DVM (digital multi meter)

on the driver side take the cover off of the ignition switch.

inside there on the switch you will see wires going to the switch in a circular pattern.

start with the key off and key OUT

you should only power on two wires

*red and red/black

with key in, you should get power in addition to the two above

*yellow

position two, in addition the all of the above, also power on....

*yellow/purple

*blue/yellow

position 3 in adition to all of the above also power on

*blue/red

*green/yellow

in the start position only power on

*yellow/white

AND power will drop out of all wires in position two

If you get power on *yellow/white in ANY other POSITION besides start, you should have a bad ignition switch.

If this all checks out, please report back and i can walk you thru on hoe you can wire up a new starter relay from the steering column.

It IS the solenoid. Regardless of it being new. You obviously checked voltage at the starter solenoid already/ everywhere else. I would replace the starter. They get stuck as they start to fail, or were made wrong. Your telling me you bought a BRAND new starter for your car, they are stupid money. Replace it.

NOT true, if it is the solenoid the starter will ENGAGE regardless if the green wire is connected to the starter @ the starter. MIJ said he removed it from the starter and no more cranks from the car regarless of position.

starters in these cars need power to engage and push the solenoid out to engage the flywheel. its only three connections if you count the ground

[MadeInJapan]

Appreciate the response on which wires get power at what key position- something that I didn't know.

I'm to tired tonight so will wait until after work tomorrow- I will have more time then anyway- and I'm pooped after a long a$$ day today.

I will test and report back with a VOM meter. You know that I did replace the electrical portion of the ignition switch already...and the key'ed portion works fine- it springs back from position III like it's suppose to and because it only does 3 positions, precisely, I don't see how the tumbler section is wonky (although I suppose it could be). Looks like I need to take the cover off of the electrical portion in order to check the voltage to the wires. I'm a bit afraid of the wires falling off of the switch- is that a real concern?

Yeah, I agree with you that the solenoid is not bad- it's not a brand new starter, but a rebuilt one and tested good before it went in the car, and when I called today I was assured that it was installed correctly. I believe in reality I have a short in the wiring somewhere that's giving me power on a wire that is only suppose to have power in position III- but it's getting power in key position II as well. I have a feeling that I may have to take you up on wiring up directly from the ignition- that the ignition swithc is going to check out fine but I'm going to have constant power in position II. Then again, if the short is in that line, the current could come all the way up to the ignition switch...making it seem like the ignition switch is bad when it really isn't. We will see and I will report back after my VOM meter test on each of the wires.

Thanks for your post!!

[MadeInJapan]

OH, and I just tried something interesting- I pulled the starter relay and touched the two wires together- something I assumed wouldn't work but the car started. Now, I've been doing some reading on the "J" relay- apparently it's a "relieve" relay- I believe it has nothing really to do with starting the car- what it apparently does is shut down all other auxiliary items while the car attempts to start, so in reality, this is no surprise. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ghost Shadow]

. Then again, if the short is in that line, the current could come all the way up to the ignition switch...making it seem like the ignition switch is bad when it really isn't. We will see and I will report back after my VOM meter test on each of the wires.

Thanks for your post!!

stock car, why would this happen?

wire melting? you will see thick white smoke and smell this smoke. alot of other stuff will not work either because it will melt other circuits together

relay bad? yes, cause power to go where it should not

harness corroded? then the car will not start because it will not conduct electricity

wire pinched? will constantly blow fuses, you are not blowing them, you just pulling it to stop the power going to the starter.

this doesnt happen for no reason. thus leads me to ignition switch.

to isolate the problem because like you said it can be coming in from down stream. you need to cut the starter wire *yellow/white a little down from the ignition switch enought so that you can strip and solder the connection back. if you going to wire a new starter relay then it needs to be cut regardless.

[jschaefer7406]

...and the key'ed portion works fine- it springs back from position III like it's suppose to and because it only does 3 positions, precisely, I don't see how the tumbler section is wonky (although I suppose it could be).

The detents (and return spring) are in the electrical switch, not the lock cylinder. With the switch removed, the cylinder just rotates freely .

Joe

[MadeInJapan]

The detents (and return spring) are in the electrical switch, not the lock cylinder. With the switch removed, the cylinder just rotates freely .

Joe

Thanks Joe- I appreciate your post- this confirms that it can't be the "tumbler" section of the ignition switch to me.

In regards to cutting wires- ummm, I don't think so. I need to fault trace things before that.

The starter relay is a known good one- heck, I've even moved the "J" relay around to other places with the same relay and interchanged them- this has made no difference at all.

[Ghost Shadow]

i

Thanks Joe- I appreciate your post- this confirms that it can't be the "tumbler" section of the ignition switch to me.

In regards to cutting wires- ummm, I don't think so. I need to fault trace things before that.

The starter relay is a known good one- heck, I've even moved the "J" relay around to other places with the same relay and interchanged them- this has made no difference at all.

i knew you were going to say that about cutting wires so, here is the easy way

take this cover off the switch

now you can just pull the wire for the starter OUT of the switch itself. like this

Now you can seperate the car from the switch. if the starter wire shows power when UNplugged from the ignition switch in position 2 and 3, there is a problem down stream. could have a bad relay.

[MadeInJapan]

Thanks for that- I went and did this earlier (I guess similar minds think alike)...just to check the wires- seeing if possibly the starter wire has unbraided or something and was touching where it would come on in position II and it was not.

I'm not sure what you mean by showing power in the wires that are disconnected. Do you mean to leave the starter wire out of the ignition switch and see if there is power in it once the key is turned?

Okay, so I have re-read what you posted.

Which wire exactly do I need to leave out?

Then, how do I test the wire? I know it is suppose to be hot- so red lead to that wire from a VOM meter and where do I touch the black lead for ground?

[Ghost Shadow]

Un plug yellow and white wire. Negative to ground, anywhere in the car..door check if a good place. Then the other end to, where the starter wire was. Turn the key. Only position it should get power is on the start position.

[MadeInJapan]

Thanks buddy- I'll do that tomorrow- Had a few things come up this evening I need to tend to.

I work from early morning to about 4 EST, so it will be after that- I will then post back.

My guess is it will show what it is suppose to show.

The reason I say this is because I believe that the positive short I'm getting on the starter wire is coming from within the engine bay- somewhere near the starter....but we'll see. Certainly, it would eliminate the back-feed to the yellow wire from under the car if I take it out of the equation.

[MadeInJapan]

I rocked the gear shifter several times today hoping that the PNP switch was causing the issue- no difference.

I also took the wire out in the ignition switch as mentioned above- I got no difference in the Volt reading when I replaced that wire with the red end of a Volt meter and put the black end to ground (in any of the key positions).

I am still stumped and am leaving my car at a friend's house for the weekend who is known to fix electrical shorts in cars and boats (mostly boats)....we'll see what he finds.

Are there any last comments on this problem??

I am supplying him with a laptop with the VADIS software and a DVD disc that has the wiring diagram for the entire car. He has a lot of electrical test tools otherwise.

I will report back what he finds as the problem, if anything. (Let's hope he figures it out).

[MadeInJapan]

So, even before I took off to my friend's house strange things happened.

First of all, twice today, the car would not start by touching the wire to the starter...I had to "hook it up," and put the key to position III and then it started normally. However, soon, the car was doing the same thing it had been doing- starting in position II and the starter staying on... Another thing that happened, the fuse for the injectors (also a few other things)- the same one that kept blowing, blew again...Hmmm....Grrrrrr.

I took off to my friend's anyway- he was very concerned with the ignition switch and wanted to see how the tumber section was so we had that all apart (as much as could be without actually taking the tumbler out) and he did the screw driver trick to it and we drove the car some this way without issue. He also looked near the starter and "unclumped" some taped wiring and checked them and also spread them apart... There was one section where the large red wire (always on, live 12V wire from the positive end of the battery) had other wires taped to its outside- I suppose to keep these wires away from the fan blade, etc., but he said, all it would take are two good connections between the Red wire and one of the smaller wires and we would have all kinds of electrical troubles. The solenoid (green wire) was also in that bundle of wires taped to the Red wire. Anyway, all evening, the car drove normally and started normally. He is still concerned that possibly the tumbler section might be playing a role- the key seems to have more slop in there than he would like....but seems he is in agreement with me that if it's a short, it will come back.

I drove the car home, trying to hit every bump I could in the road- so far so good. Everything is connected back like it should be. If the starter begins its thing again, the suggestion is to first, separate the tumbler from the ignition switch and use a screw driver again and see if instantly the problem goes away....if this does not solve it, then we know for sure it's a short from below. It could be that whatever we did tonight has fixed the problem for good- I have my doubts, but am keeping my fingers crossed.