Über855R Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ I am considering getting one for my car. It seems like "cheap" insurance and could actually make tuning easier. My question is, does anybody have first hand experience using this in a Volvo five cylinder? If not, how about second hand experience? It is a bit expensive to just try, but all the info I have seen about it so far has been positive. I would enjoy having the piece of mind that bad gas or hot temps or high altitude will not fry my engine unexpectedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightmopedman9 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Seems like a cool product. Would retarding the timing confuse the ECU? Don you not think an EGT + Wideband would be enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted November 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Both good thoughts. I am running turbo tuner and honestly have no idea. Although I would expect since it try's to advance timing back to ecu limits right away, I would think it would be okay. I do have wideband AFR and EGT but they only tell you there is a problem, but don't fix it. If you are not watching the second something goes wrong they won't help much at saving your engine in case of bad gas or other extenuating circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 thats a good product but not needed if you are using tt which utilizes the stock knock sensors. And an egt gauge is pretty much worthless on a gasoline engine as far as tuning goes,unless you have individual per cylinder, no idea why people even bother with them. Wideband and knock sensors is all you need. If setup properly the knock sensors will let the ecu pull timing if there is an issue, weather you have shitty gas, or your motor just plain goes lean for some reason the motor will knock and the ecu should be able to correct for it. The safeguard will give you little advantage of a properly functioning stock knock sensor setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightmopedman9 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I plan on running an EGT on the #1 cylinder (furthest from the fuel line), and you're telling me it will be a useless number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted November 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 thats a good product but not needed if you are using tt which utilizes the stock knock sensors. And an egt gauge is pretty much worthless on a gasoline engine as far as tuning goes,unless you have individual per cylinder, no idea why people even bother with them. Wideband and knock sensors is all you need. If setup properly the knock sensors will let the ecu pull timing if there is an issue, weather you have shitty gas, or your motor just plain goes lean for some reason the motor will knock and the ecu should be able to correct for it. The safeguard will give you little advantage of a properly functioning stock knock sensor setup. Thank you for chiming in. I figured TT would pull timing, still it is good to know. It seems like this might be better at it, but that's why I am asking. One person who used it mentioned how dyno tuning was a breeze because it will pull twenty degrees of timing and tell you how much so you can spend less time fine tuning. Do you think this is valid? Also, I do have a port on each cylinder for EGT. Unfortunately I don't think turbo tuner can tune each cylinder individually so I'm not sure what to do but change plugs or injectors when something is wrong. Any ideas how i can utilize things best there? I ask because I am still debating to buy six EGT sensors or just move the one if I need to diagnose a problem. Thanks for any helpful input. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I plan on running an EGT on the #1 cylinder (furthest from the fuel line), and you're telling me it will be a useless number? not usless but definitely not worth the money, better spent else were. Thank you for chiming in. I figured TT would pull timing, still it is good to know. It seems like this might be better at it, but that's why I am asking. One person who used it mentioned how dyno tuning was a breeze because it will pull twenty degrees of timing and tell you how much so you can spend less time fine tuning. Do you think this is valid? Also, I do have a port on each cylinder for EGT. Unfortunately I don't think turbo tuner can tune each cylinder individually so I'm not sure what to do but change plugs or injectors when something is wrong. Any ideas how i can utilize things best there? I ask because I am still debating to buy six EGT sensors or just move the one if I need to diagnose a problem. Thanks for any helpful input. Ben It does make tuning a breeze, especially since most stand alone ems dont use knock sensors and when they do they normally suck. Dont waste your money on individual egt probes, thats alot of moeny...wasted. I dont think you can even adjust individual cylinder injector trim with TT? Your not building a race car, and TT couldnt do anything with any ammount of egt probes, you would need a logger to make them worth while. Im not quite sure what your problem is here, are you having issues with knocking? Or did you just find this cool gaget and are trying to find an excuse to buy it Surely your not worried about bad gas, altitude or ambient temps, if you are, let me put your mind at rest. TT is nothing more than a stock motronic ecu that lets you modify the parameters. This is why it sucks, it still likes to do what ever the hell it wants to do even after you have tuned it, but on the plus side it all means that it has a very good knock detection system. It utilized both knock sensors and im fairly certain it uses a closed loop system to control timing. This means that the ecu is constantly monitoring any knock and adjusting timing and fuel to compensate. If your sensors are all working properly and your TT tune has not fudged up all the knock sensor settings(i dont know if you even can) then you have absolutly nothing to worry about. Edit, now if your looking to make your tuning life a bit easier, invest in a logging system like Hussien uses, Innovate makes a nice setup. And just use your ears to listen for detonation, if your really looking to dial in your ignition timing to make every bit of power then i would recomend making some "det cans" (google it) or you can also get creative and use a microphone input on your computer to listen for knock and even log it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fischmama Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I plan on running an EGT on the #1 cylinder (furthest from the fuel line), and you're telling me it will be a useless number? To my experience and others. Cyl 4 appears to be the hottest one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 To my experience and others. Cyl 4 appears to be the hottest one. and has nothing to do with the placement of the fuel line :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted November 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 not usless but definitely not worth the money, better spent else were. Im not quite sure what your problem is here, are you having issues with knocking? Or did you just find this cool gaget and are trying to find an excuse to buy it You are probably right. Thanks for the kick. But still, just if you have time to humor me. Isn't detonation the main cause of damages to a turbo engine? Don't most of us want to tune to the edge of ping then keep it there? It does seem like this would just be a very expensive knock LED that would only serve as insurance against stupidity. But then I think to myself how my stock trans ended up with a softball sized hole in the side so I might be stupid at times, and insurance would be cheaper than a new motor. But a knock light is very helpful for tuning isn't it? More so than an EGT it would seem... "thinking to myself, "can I return that EGT?"" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I would put an EGT probe in each runner if I were doing it over. I have one in the #4 runner at the collector, since that is known to be the hottest. For me, it would be the easiest way to isolate a problem with an individual cylinder, since TT COP doesn't set any codes when a coilpack fails.... However, as Robbie said, TT can do nothing with this info, you need logging software to gauge where your egt's lay in relation to AFR's & timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 You are probably right. Thanks for the kick. But still, just if you have time to humor me. Isn't detonation the main cause of damages to a turbo engine? Don't most of us want to tune to the edge of ping then keep it there? It does seem like this would just be a very expensive knock LED that would only serve as insurance against stupidity. But then I think to myself how my stock trans ended up with a softball sized hole in the side so I might be stupid at times, and insurance would be cheaper than a new motor. But a knock light is very helpful for tuning isn't it? More so than an EGT it would seem... "thinking to myself, "can I return that EGT?"" Dont get me wrong, the safeguard is a killer unit and a major time saver and will make tuning much much better, but in my opinion if your still using TT you dont need it, but of course if you have the money to spend then go for it, but that being said if you have the money, ditch TT and get a real engine managment system With a system that utilizes knock sensors and closed loop ignition control, tuning to the point of ping and then backing off is a pretty safe way of doing things, worse case scenario is the motor pings and the ecu pulls timing to prevent it from getting worse. You are correct that detonation will kill one of these motors faster than just about anything, but that being said, you will hear it. If you know what detonation sounds like and you dont just ignore it you arent going to destroy your motor buy playing with the timing. Keep your afrs between 11.5-11.0( i shoot for 11.7) and then play with the timing, keep advancing until you just hear it ping then back it off a degree or two. If your knock sensors are working the ecu will be able to compensate for any knocking due to change in octane or ambient temps. But what it really comes down to is if you want to tune ignition, get the car on a load holding dyno and tune each igntion load cell individually and get it perfect. I would put an EGT probe in each runner if I were doing it over. I have one in the #4 runner at the collector, since that is known to be the hottest. For me, it would be the easiest way to isolate a problem with an individual cylinder, since TT COP doesn't set any codes when a coilpack fails.... However, as Robbie said, TT can do nothing with this info, you need logging software to gauge where your egt's lay in relation to AFR's & timing. Of course if you have the money its a great setup! Or if your like you Hussien and have a fetish for sensors monitoring every possible parameter whens the humidity sensor getting installed :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightmopedman9 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 and has nothing to do with the placement of the fuel line The farther you go from the fuel rail inlet the greater the pressure drop is. With a decrease in pressure comes a decrease in fuel flow, it seems that if one were to take a random guess at which cylinder was the hottest, it would make sense that it would be this one. To my experience and others. Cyl 4 appears to be the hottest one. Is that directly in the outlet from the cylinder or is that in the collector? Why does it appear to be the hottest? Is it empirically proven or is there some theory behind it? Sorry, not trying to bust anyone's chops; I'm just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted November 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 1.) Don't get me wrong, the safeguard is a killer unit and a major time saver and will make tuning much much better. 2.) ditch TT and get a real engine managment system 3.) You are correct that detonation will kill one of these motors faster than just about anything, but that being said, you will hear it. 4.) Or if you're like Hussien and have a fetish for sensors monitoring every possible parameter whens the humidity sensor getting installed Just humor me for a moment, I appreciate the input seriously. I will address thoughts I have for each number. 1.) If I did not need to spend money getting a tune couldn't this unit pay for itself? 2.) If only I didn't live in a city in California. 3.) Will I not hear it only when it is obvious and loud? The lights or the safeguard function to sense knock before it is obvious and flash or pull timing respectively. Which is advantageous when you are full throttle and things are loud. 4.) I could see how a humidity sensor would be nice. Maybe we both have the same fetish. It is obvious what I think but I do wish someone had tried it before me. As Dave Chapelle might say. Never be the first black Volvo to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 The farther you go from the fuel rail inlet the greater the pressure drop is. With a decrease in pressure comes a decrease in fuel flow, it seems that if one were to take a random guess at which cylinder was the hottest, it would make sense that it would be this one. Is that directly in the outlet from the cylinder or is that in the collector? Why does it appear to be the hottest? Is it empirically proven or is there some theory behind it? Sorry, not trying to bust anyone's chops; I'm just wondering... unless you are running very large injectors(close to the limit of what the stock rail is capable of) i dont think you will see any issues with flow further away from the inlet. I think you would see more variations in egts from the shitty cooling system design of the block Just humor me for a moment, I appreciate the input seriously. I will address thoughts I have for each number. 1.) If I did not need to spend money getting a tune couldn't this unit pay for itself? 2.) If only I didn't live in a city in California. 3.) Will I not hear it only when it is obvious and loud? The lights or the safeguard function to sense knock before it is obvious and flash or pull timing respectively. Which is advantageous when you are full throttle and things are loud. 4.) I could see how a humidity sensor would be nice. Maybe we both have the same fetish. It is obvious what I think but I do wish someone had tried it before me. As Dave Chapelle might say. Never be the first black Volvo to do anything. 1.) Sure, but you still need to tune it, and you can still do a very good job tuning without it and in my opinion it is mainly used to help tune ignition and if your tuning ignition you should be on a load dyno anyways and at that you might as well just throw on some det cans while your doing pulls....But this is all my opinion, the way i would do it. This is more of a luxury, and like i said if you have the money then go for it, but if it was me, i could find better ways to spend the money 2.) oregon is only one state away i have to get to work, will post more at lunch :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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