J&s Safeguard, Does Anybody Have Experience With These?

[fischmama]

Is that directly in the outlet from the cylinder or is that in the collector? Why does it appear to be the hottest? Is it empirically proven or is there some theory behind it?

Sorry, not trying to bust anyone's chops; I'm just wondering...

I don't know if there is any actual EGT data out there that verifies it, but both RICA and Adam (Turbotuner inventor) have confirmed that theory as well as Hussain and me melting stock pistons (both cyl 4).

[mdlimy]

Just humor me for a moment, I appreciate the input seriously. I will address thoughts I have for each number.

1.) If I did not need to spend money getting a tune couldn't this unit pay for itself?

2.) If only I didn't live in a city in California.

3.) Will I not hear it only when it is obvious and loud? The lights or the safeguard function to sense knock before it is obvious and flash or pull timing respectively. Which is advantageous when you are full throttle and things are loud.

4.) I could see how a humidity sensor would be nice. Maybe we both have the same fetish.

It is obvious what I think but I do wish someone had tried it before me. As Dave Chapelle might say. Never be the first black Volvo to do anything.

3. depends how loud your car is. my 855 had a straight turbo back 3" with two magnaflows and i could hear every bit of detonation. I didnt have any knock sensors and never had an issue with hurting my motor from detonation, i could hear it if it was coming on and would let off, this only happened when it was super hot and running californias shitty 91 octane.

In regards to what the safegaurd is doing....your ecu should already be doing this, im not sure why you keep doubting this... your looking at buying something that is used in situations where an ecu doesnt have the capability of controlling timing via input from knock sensors.....which you do.....

4. yes it sure would be convinent, just giving H some shit he has a really nice setup going on, he can pinpoint almost every issue he has, once he gets vems up and running tuning should be a breeze with all his sensors and logging capabilities.

[Über855R]

1.) Running on a load dyno.

2.) Running californias shitty 91 octane.

3.) Your ecu should already be doing this.

4.) he has a really nice setup going on, he can pinpoint almost every issue he has.

1.) I plan on running on the street to do the majority of the tuning. It seems like realistic tuning is better than high hp numbers. Although I will likely fine tune on the dyno when it is close.

2.) I like California, just not the gas and smog laws. We do have E85 in my town though.

3.) The ECU does do this, but to what degree? I wonder how fast the Volvo/TT ecu adjusts and by how much? Does it just pull timing, or adjust each cylinder individually?

4.) We all agree on that.

The Safeguard will pull twenty degrees of timing on each cylinder individually for minimum power loss. It also advances every two revolutions back to max settings. Plus it allows you to log timing. I don't think a '97 Volvo ecu has that good of control in comparison. This thing may be able to pull timing when you get a momentary lean condition from stupidly installing a blow off valve instead of a recirc on a MAF car. (guilty, but I still love the whoosh)

I know this is only one case but I did find this posting on a forum about it that makes me think it could be money well spent. http://www.lightningrodder.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1713315#post1713315:

[mdlimy]

1.) I plan on running on the street to do the majority of the tuning. It seems like realistic tuning is better than high hp numbers. Although I will likely fine tune on the dyno when it is close.

2.) I like California, just not the gas and smog laws. We do have E85 in my town though.

3.) The ECU does do this, but to what degree? I wonder how fast the Volvo/TT ecu adjusts and by how much? Does it just pull timing, or adjust each cylinder individually?

4.) We all agree on that.

The Safeguard will pull twenty degrees of timing on each cylinder individually for minimum power loss. It also advances every two revolutions back to max settings. Plus it allows you to log timing. I don't think a '97 Volvo ecu has that good of control in comparison. This thing may be able to pull timing when you get a momentary lean condition from stupidly installing a blow off valve instead of a recirc on a MAF car. (guilty, but I still love the whoosh)

I know this is only one case but I did find this posting on a forum about it that makes me think it could be money well spent. http://www.lightning...15#post1713315:

Im not sure why you think the stock ecu is not capable of pulling timing when needed. From what it seems, you have no reason to believe the ecu isnt doing its job, so why question it?

I will say it one more time, that unit is designed to be used on applictions where the engine managment is not capable of using knock sensors. The stock ecu is fairly good at doing this and you have no reason to use anything else.

This is all my opinion and if you could give some sort of reason as to why you dont think the stock system is good enough i might look into it a bit more but right now i feel like im not getting through to you at all.

And as far as pulling timing in each individual cylinder to help with perfromance.....thats bullshit. Timing is pulled as a fail safe, if the motor knocks it pulls timing, it doesnt try to pull as little as possible so that you can keep performance, it just wants to stop the pinging. If your motor is tuned properly you should very very rarely have any pinging issues which means the ecu wont need to pull timing at all.

[Über855R]

Im not sure why you think the stock ecu is not capable of pulling timing when needed. From what it seems, you have no reason to believe the ecu isnt doing its job, so why question it?

I will say it one more time, that unit is designed to be used on applictions where the engine managment is not capable of using knock sensors. The stock ecu is fairly good at doing this and you have no reason to use anything else.

This is all my opinion and if you could give some sort of reason as to why you dont think the stock system is good enough i might look into it a bit more but right now i feel like im not getting through to you at all.

And as far as pulling timing in each individual cylinder to help with perfromance.....thats I'm dumb. Timing is pulled as a fail safe, if the motor knocks it pulls timing, it doesnt try to pull as little as possible so that you can keep performance, it just wants to stop the pinging. If your motor is tuned properly you should very very rarely have any pinging issues which means the ecu wont need to pull timing at all.

I apologize if you are misunderstanding me, I believe that I understand what you are saying. The stock ecu already does have this feature. Apparently does it pretty effectively. I am only wondering how much the stock ecu will pull timing, i.e. how many degrees? And how quickly it works?

I realize that a good tune with good conditions will negate the need for a device like this. Also that these are mostly used on cars that use a system that doesn't already have this feature built it.

That being said the reason I don't think the stock ECU does it good enough is that I have heard of blown head gaskets, melted motors and plenty of other uncontrollable mishaps that lead to catastrophic engine failure and I am only thinking if a $600 dollar device can save a ~$7000 motor then it will be money well spent. But if my stock ecu will perform the same features then it would be a waste of money with no benefit at all.

I believe the stock management doesn't pull timing on each cylinder but the safeguard does do this. Seems cool to me. But that is why I am asking if anyone else has tried this. Preferably with a TT but if anyone has tried it I would like to know their experiences.

I appreciate your input and do not mean to frustrate you with my continual questions. Thank you for your patience and indulging me.

Ben

[mdlimy]

I apologize if you are misunderstanding me, I believe that I understand what you are saying. The stock ecu already does have this feature. Apparently does it pretty effectively. I am only wondering how much the stock ecu will pull timing, i.e. how many degrees? And how quickly it works?

I realize that a good tune with good conditions will negate the need for a device like this. Also that these are mostly used on cars that use a system that doesn't already have this feature built it.

That being said the reason I don't think the stock ECU does it good enough is that I have heard of blown head gaskets, melted motors and plenty of other uncontrollable mishaps that lead to catastrophic engine failure and I am only thinking if a $600 dollar device can save a ~$7000 motor then it will be money well spent. But if my stock ecu will perform the same features then it would be a waste of money with no benefit at all.

I believe the stock management doesn't pull timing on each cylinder but the safeguard does do this. Seems cool to me. But that is why I am asking if anyone else has tried this. Preferably with a TT but if anyone has tried it I would like to know their experiences.

I appreciate your input and do not mean to frustrate you with my continual questions. Thank you for your patience and indulging me.

Ben

Ok so my conclusion...

Im not sure how much timing the stock ecu pulls or how fast but i do know that it is enough and fast enough to work.

These stories of melted and destroyed motors a assure you are due to either poor tuning and or malfunctioning parts(ie knock sensors)

With a properly built motor you will not have a problem making decent numbers with TT without melting your motor to the ground.

The 600 dollars you would be spending on this could be spent to have your car properly tuned. Lucky @ard is very familiar with the motronic ecus and im sure tuning your TT would be a breeze for him, and your not all that far from Portland, might be worth the drive or even catch him next time hes down in California. But i will assure you that with properly functioning hardware and a good tune you have absolutely nothing to worry about as long as you are not deaf and ignore the OBVIOUS signs of detonation, the detonation that will seriously hurt your motor will easily be heard and as long as you let off when you hear it you will do very very little to no damage at all.

Everyone on this forum knows i hate TT, but only for the sheer fact that it is not as tunable as a full stand alone engine management but the fact is it is still very capable as you can see from quite a few member on this forum that are making over 350whp.

Hope this helps, dont think there is much more i can say, doubt anyone on this forum has any experience with it though, maybe hit up some of the ems forums like aem, motec, nistune, megasquirt etc....

[Über855R]

Thank you for indulging me. I believe enough has been said on this matter.

Unless anyone knows how the ecu handles detonation or has experience with the J&S Safeguard? In which case please add to the discussion.

[lookforjoe]

Thank you for indulging me. I believe enough has been said on this matter.

Unless anyone knows how the ecu handles detonation or has experience with the J&S Safeguard? In which case please add to the discussion.

LOL.

Ben, I know from our PM's that you want to be as safe as you can possibly be, but this is beating a deadhorse!

For this standalone knock sensing to work as they claim ( pulling timing on individual cylinders), you would need more than the stock TWO sensors. Where exactly would you install say, three or more sensors ( assuming the system is discreet enough to isolate fine knocking one only one cylinder).

Honestly, if the company selling it can't answer EVERY question you may have about installing it, then it makes no sense to even consider it.

The other point, as has been stated, is that you have a fully functional knock detection integrated into the existing EMS. Since the standalone is intended for basic EMS's that either have NO KS, or perhaps a very basic version ( one sensor for all cylinders, no accelerometer to differentiate chassis knock from engine knock), how can you know whether this system will not interfere negatively with the stock setup? The two may be at odds with each other. If their suggestion is to disable the factory KS, again, I'd pass.

The suggestion to spend that money on a knowledgeable person tuning for you makes much more sense ( did you contact Lucky yet?)

[Tightmopedman9]

Not that it really matters, but it actually only needs one knock sensor to operate correctly. It detects knock after an ignition event to pin point the knocking cylinder. I dont think a knock sensor on every cylinder would even be useful, they would just pick up on knock from the other cylinders.

[Über855R]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=j%26s%20safeguard%2C%20water%20meth%20injection&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CD8QtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQy79EiscsEw&ei=FA2jUIPuLKP_igKii4DYDw&usg=AFQjCNHfUwoHITaKs21NoaxgdmjgSt_wuQ&sig2=KTxdTUzhzUdyL88BUcCjAg

This interested me in the unit. See it correcting when the bov vents? I assume this is a MAF engine management similar to ours. The safeguard pulls ignition on each individual cylinder using only one knock sensor. Seems like a good diagnostic tool with the added benefit of actually doing something.

The unit also has a staging feature which allows the spark to be pulled once every three events rotating which cylinder misfires for staging and launch. Giving 2/3 power from the engine. Anyone who has tried to launch a FWD Volvo can attest to how handy that could be.

[mdlimy]

The unit also has a staging feature which allows the spark to be pulled once every three events rotating which cylinder misfires for staging and launch. Giving 2/3 power from the engine. Anyone who has tried to launch a FWD Volvo can attest to how handy that could be.

So essentially, 2 step, pulling timing to allow the rich mixture to spool the turbo. You think launching your fwd volvo without launch control is hard...im sure you can guess whats its like trying to get traction when your coming off the line WITH boost. Buy the way, an msd 6al will give you launch control, and its not 600 dollars. But it sounds like you have your mind made up, your buying into every little thing the company has ranted about with this unit, sure its got lots of cool features that sound good on paper but really like Hussien said your beating a dead horse, or as some say "if it aint broke, dont fix it". Personally i dont like the idea of having a unit controlling the timing while the ecu is still trying to, have you thought about how your TT will interact with this? Not saying it will do anything at all but i sure think having two computer trying to control the same thing could get a bit iffy....

[Über855R]

I am not sure why, but I get the feeling you are getting frustrated here. I appreciate your willingness to talk about a previously unused product with me, I did not intend to upset you.

My thought about the staging feature would not be to spool before launch, obviously that won't help with wheel spin. My thought was to use the feature for the first 30' or so to make throttle modulation off the line a little easier. Just a thought, obviously I don't know how that would work out but it might be cool. This MSD unit probably could do a better job but I am not finding very much info on the websites that sell the unit. Unfortunately I don't know much about it.

With a good tune in ideal conditions having the safeguard would be useless because you should not have detonation. But as in the story I linked to in the lightning forums, it is not when the vehicle runs good that is the problem. It is when something fails, then you have a net to save your expensive motor from meltdown.

I think everyone could agree that a knock sensor or det cans are a good tool when tuning a turbo engine. But a good knock sensor costs $200-$300 dollars and does nothing to save your motor in a problem situation. The safeguard is twice the price but actually helps protect your engine. If the dealer has a good return policy and good customer support for setup and using the product then it could pay for itself many times over when something goes wrong. Like a bad stock knock sensor, clogged injector, bad fuel pump, clogged fuel filter, or any other number of problems that could arise on a 15 year old car with a motor worth more than the car.

It has been mentioned previously that this could interact poorly with the ECU pulling timing and I am not sure how that would work. Although I would guess that this would pull timing before the ECU ever tried, thereby fixing the condition and allowing the ECU to manage the engine normally without ever reacting to the ping. But that would need to be confirmed by someone who has used it on a Volvo.

I would think if I was willing to buy this thing and try it everyone would be happy to see how it works and possibly have a new resource/aid in tuning these less than ideal stock ecu/TT setups.

[mdlimy]

I am not sure why, but I get the feeling you are getting frustrated here. I appreciate your willingness to talk about a previously unused product with me, I did not intend to upset you.

If i was frustrated i wouldnt bother to post, im trying to help, it just seems like you have your mind made up and no matter what is said you still want to buy it, which is fine.

My thought about the staging feature would not be to spool before launch, obviously that won't help with wheel spin. My thought was to use the feature for the first 30' or so to make throttle modulation off the line a little easier. Just a thought, obviously I don't know how that would work out but it might be cool. This MSD unit probably could do a better job but I am not finding very much info on the websites that sell the unit. Unfortunately I don't know much about it.

Its not that hard to launch these cars, the hardest part is getting traction, having launch control will not help this, traction control will, and this unit is definitely not capable of any sort of decent traction control, it would need a speed input to even remotely be able to sort out traction control. I can confidently say you can completely rule out the chances of this unit helping you get off the line quicker, unless you run slicks.

With a good tune in ideal conditions having the safeguard would be useless because you should not have detonation. But as in the story I linked to in the lightning forums, it is not when the vehicle runs good that is the problem. It is when something fails, then you have a net to save your expensive motor from meltdown.

Like said before, stock ecu has knock sensors for a reason...

I think everyone could agree that a knock sensor or det cans are a good tool when tuning a turbo engine.

But a good knock sensor costs $200-$300 dollars and does nothing to save your motor in a problem situation.

huh? you do understand that timing is pulled to prevent knocking right?....and this is what the STOCK ecu does....

The safeguard is twice the price but actually helps protect your engine. If the dealer has a good return policy and good customer support for setup and using the product then it could pay for itself many times over when something goes wrong. Like a bad stock knock sensor, clogged injector, bad fuel pump, clogged fuel filter, or any other number of problems that could arise on a 15 year old car with a motor worth more than the car.

It has been mentioned previously that this could interact poorly with the ECU pulling timing and I am not sure how that would work. Although I would guess that this would pull timing before the ECU ever tried, thereby fixing the condition and allowing the ECU to manage the engine normally without ever reacting to the ping. But that would need to be confirmed by someone who has used it on a Volvo.

I would think if I was willing to buy this thing and try it everyone would be happy to see how it works and possibly have a new resource/aid in tuning these less than ideal stock ecu/TT setups.

Im willing to bet that even if you proved this thing to work great, no one on this forum would buy it for two reasons.

1. its $600

2. the stock ecu does a perfectly fine job of it

Buy it, try it, and let us know how it works, it better damn near tune its self for that price!

Now im kind of frustrated, no more posting in this thread for me :ph34r:

[Über855R]

I'm not buying it. Mostly thanks to your input. I appreciate you talking me down. Thank you. I should probably send you a check for $20 for saving me $600. But since I probably won't, if I ever meet you at a Volvo event how about I buy you a beer? (I hope that would make you less frustrated.)

I just want to do everything possible to make sure this motor I'm building lasts a long time. I'm sure you understand.

Plus, for that same price I could get a nice water injection setup. I haven't seen any ping when people run water injection.

[mdlimy]

I'm not buying it. Mostly thanks to your input. I appreciate you talking me down. Thank you. I should probably send you a check for $20 for saving me $600. But since I probably won't, if I ever meet you at a Volvo event how about I buy you a beer? (I hope that would make you less frustrated.)

I just want to do everything possible to make sure this motor I'm building lasts a long time. I'm sure you understand.

Plus, for that same price I could get a nice water injection setup. I haven't seen any ping when people run water injection.

a beer would be great lol

Now your thinking, wmi would be a great investment, and seriously talk to lucky about tuning your car, he is about the best person around to tune that motor properly and let it live a long healthy life.