Off Grid

[flyfishing3]

i used to have a good source for beef. the guy would buy a couple cows and raise on his property.

we'd then process the cows and just divide the cost between us. we did pigs also.

i've never had meat like this since. i loved buying a 1/2 cow and full pig regularly.

[Gideon35T]

Are you buying preserved food ie canned food, or are you buying food and then preserving it.....

in like a freezer, or by pickling or self-canning? how long of a preservation period are you looking at? and if you want to go off grid, then why are you buying food?

Buying preserved food and preserving both. Bepends on the item and it depends on my ability to produce and preserve it. Dehydrating and canning are two simple methods with low overhead.

True long term storage friendly things that I can't produce (salt, suger, etc) are purchased in bulk and stored. Things I produce are stored for <1 year typically. Because the idea is to preserve my surplus for consumption in the seasons which do not yeild that product. I buy food because there's simply some things I can't produce. I could technically grow rice but the overhead needed in the desert versus the ability to buy 100 lbs for $20 and store it indefinetely ... See what I mean ?

If you don't buy food, how else can you breed food?

Well, certainly have to initially purchase animals and seeds ! haha

well, i understand the initial expenses to get started, that's a given like buying livestock and seeds and fertilizer to get started....after that, breeding, growing etc would become just labor

i'm just curious about the preserving part.....doesn't make sense to me....i know in the villages of india, pickling is very popular for preseving food, but you can't preserve everything, and it only lasts for so long (6 months and that's only because indian diet is generally vegetarian)

pickled meat on the other hand, i wouldn't trust it.

Low ph foods have to be dehydrated or canned in a pressure canner. Only a pressure canner can reach temps high enough to kill botulism. With water bath canning you're relying on the high acidity to keep growth low or nonexistent. Pickling is good for >1 year but I generally only pickle the typically pickled items. Other items are stored different ways.

Dude I'm Mormon. We've perfected the science and economics of food storage. You could learn a few things in my storage pantry and kitchen.

The point is to buy the best foods on sale and store them for regular usage. We keep a year's supply of meat and 3 month's supply of most other foods we eat outside of the fresh vegetables.

My wife grew up on a gentleman's farm where they basically raised everything they needed. Dad was a lawyer. Chickens and beef were slaughtered every year and stored for the winter. Fruit and vegetables were harvested and canned or frozen. Best hamburger you've never eaten since they ground up an entire cow. Apple juice and grape juice canned. Beans, carrots, pears, peaches, strawberries, blueberries frozen. Apple pies and strawberry pies frozen. Jams of all varieties canned. Tomato sauce and whole tomatoes canned.

She's the best damn cook I've ever met. Everything from scratch.

Feel free to send some info my way! I'm always looking for new methods and recipes. I'm currently working on lacto-fermentaion for Kim-Chi :-)

[Burn-E]

pickled meat on the other hand, i wouldn't trust it.

Meat in soups can be canned but you need to do hot pack pressure canning rather than the cold pack canning described in the butter link. It will last 12 months but 6 months is the general usage guideline for best taste and texture.

[Gideon35T]

i used to have a good source for beef. the guy would buy a couple cows and raise on his property.

we'd then process the cows and just divide the cost between us. we did pigs also.

i've never had meat like this since. i loved buying a 1/2 cow and full pig regularly.

I have a local guy who has a larger scale version of what I'm doing. He doesn't produce rabbits and I don't produce dairy or beef. We'll be bartering as we desire so we both benefit.

I wish cattle didn't require such a massive ammount of grazing land here in AZ. I'd pick up a small breed. Though processing/preserving that much meat later may be difficult.

Meat in soups can be canned but you need to do hot pack pressure canning rather than the cold pack canning described in the butter link. It will last 12 months but 6 months is the general usage guideline for best taste and texture.

I mentioned pressure canning above. It's really the only method for meats.

The big downside is that it requires a lot of energy to pressure can and the heat from a rocket stove looks to be too inconsistant for it.

[Gideon35T]

I require more details on that. By any chance, have you been comparing the past 5 years of a recession against your stockpile's costsavings? Because I'd argue you really need to look 15-20 years back and average it. And are you saying you're buying food which then increases in cost over 5 years?

The most detailed info I could find is from the USDA. They show from 1994 to present.

"Thrifty plan": Family of 4, couple 20-50, children 1-2 and 3-5 = January 1994 $327.50 ... January 2012 $548.00

Here's the link: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/usdafoodcost-home.htm - You have to select two dates and compare the individual charts

[theForgottenone]

Where the hell you buy 100lbs of.rice for $20. The cheapest of 50lbs bag of rice is $35 around here.

When i think off.grid, i think of third world country. That how i was raised.

[Gideon35T]

Heck, I can buy 25lbs bags at Walmart for ~$10.50 still --- Cheapest for bulk purchasing is asian food marts though.

Not the chains or big places. The ones that speak basically no english and look like hell inside and out.

[Gideon35T]

A pair of propane tanks popped up on craigslist yesterday for cheap. Snatched them up after work.

I now have six 20lbs propane tanks, one 100lbs tank, and three dozen 1lb tanks.

I might try cooking on the propane cooktop exclusively for a bit to see how long a single 20 will last.

[cheapwagon]

Wow looks like you have planned out a lot here good luck with it. I just have one burning question I have to ask though....did you ever put the bumper cover back on the s60?

[Gideon35T]

Wow looks like you have planned out a lot here good luck with it. I just have one burning question I have to ask though....did you ever put the bumper cover back on the s60?

There's many systems and subsystem that must be addressed. That's really where most of the complexity and difficulties reside.

Hahahaha, no actually. The S60 isn't on the road at the moment anyways. That will be taken care of when it comes time to revisit the car as a whole.

[Gideon35T]

Heated with only propane last night. We actually had snow sticking this morning. The results? ... With it on low the house never dropped below 60f. Well, that's misleading. I don't heat the bedroom at night so this really only applies to the main living space (living room, dining room, kitchen) no matter the method but it certainly worked nicely. I don't believe it dropped below 28f at my house last night though. Consumption rate is very low too. On the low setting it should run about 6 hours per pound of propane and half that on high. Debating if I should break out the kerosene heater for testing or leave it in storage mode.

New water setup items will be coming in over the next two weeks. Prepping the area for the tank this weekend. Still debating on the pump setup/style to bring water into the house though. I really need something that I can stick a large container under for if/when I need to move bulk water within the home.

For any of you who are considering long term storage foods I have found some AWESOME shelf stable cheese and bacon (not that "tactical bacon" crap). Shoot me a pm and I'll fill you in.

Added another Gorilla Rack to my super pantry. I replaced a plastic one that will be moved out to the covered patio area. Debating snatching up a few more and adding a new row to the pantry. If you need bulk storage shelving I highly suggest the Gorilla Racks as they hold 1,000 lbs each and mount together so you don't get crushed. They are on sale at Ace Hardware right now too. Normally ~$70 they are currently ~$36. Great deal!

Here's a quick pic from this morning. We got a few inches but the snow vanishes so quickly here ...

In the background you can see the closest house. It's ~85m from the closest corner of my house to the closest corner of their wall. The second closest house is well over 100m and the other sides of my house have WAY more property between me and them. Some visual cover and it will feel less crowded ;-)

[Gideon35T]

I've been very busy so I haven't had the chance to fill you all in but now I finally have enough free time.

Orchard - Done minus 2x Braeburn apple trees I'm still waiting for. Currently have: 2x Santa Rosa Plum trees, 2x July Elberta Peach trees, 2x Double Jewel Peach trees, and 2x Pink Lady Apple trees, 3x Kashmir Pomegranates. These are all dwarves or semi-dwarves. I'm also working to propagate the native pomegranates (Wonderfuls) as well as the native prickly pear cacti.

Garden - All the raised beds are built. Due to the absurd cost of lumber at the moment I ended up building them all with rocks from around the property. All the forms of dirt are on hand and just need to be mixed then dropped into the beds. Worked out a deal with a local rancher for an unending supply of manure from his horses. Picking up some lattice today to sheild the beds from the western sun as the trees aren't really big enough to do the job just yet. Planting starts very soon.

Chickens - 5x Leghorn chicks are at my buddies ranch. They will be coming over once they are pullets (young hens not old enough to lay just yet). The chicken run is built and allows the birds access to the area under the peach trees. All dropped/bruised fruit will be theirs. I'll be building the coop this week.

Deck - I pulled apart the useless deck on the north side of the house and replaced it with just a set of stairs. This gave me a ton of "free" lumber to be used on the above noted chicken coop and whatever else needed.

Compost - The compost setu has been expanded and enclosed. The local javelina were getting into the compost so I build a small chainlink enclosure to keep them out. Working so far.

Fencing - While the house and garden area is surrounded by a 6' chainlink fence this does nothing to stop the rabbits. The entire fence has now been wrapped and skirted with 1" hex chicken wire. Haven't seen a bunny inside the since install. We'll see if this is all that is needed as time goes on.

Cistern - Sigh ... FAIL ... That's what I get for cheaping out I guess. Replacement is on the way and the area is prepped. ~5,500 gallons worth of storage will be available once it's in. Should have my hands on it before this weekend and I'll get it installed immediately as I'm now behind on this particular project.

Water - Went with a Katadyn Ceradyn water filtration setup. As the water we will be treating wont be dirty to begin with we should get the full 40,000 gallons of potable water out of it. This should last many many years. I will be shock treating the cistern itself as needed with Calcium hypochlorite. It evaporates away and leaves behind nothing that is a concern for the gardens, orchards, pets, or humans.

Solar - Picked up the home panels. In addition to my small subsystems of panels I'll be adding 432 watts of new panels to run the house. This will be plenty as our power consumtion rate is a small fraction of that even in the winter. Need to pick up a suitable charge controller and a pair of battaries on par for the job.

HVAC - Don't need any at the moment. The house stays between 60-70f all by itself as outside temps are 50-90f at the moment. Heating, along with a million backups, is taken care of so now my attention will turn to cooling. A solar powered evaporative cooler is on the agenda. Paired with my subsystems this should be enough.

Plenty of small things done or planned but this list covered the key changes. It's coming together slowly but surely.

Just need a few more things done and the zombies can show up whenever they please ... ;-)

[pdlarson]

I read most, only skipped a couple pages of this thread. Kudos to you for having the balls to make the decision to be mostly self-reliant, living within your means and not being a slave to your lifestyle / debt. I know a guy who has done similar here in the mountains of Montana, normal guy, works because he wants to, lives off-grid but yes of course shops in stores with cash.

I have a camper trailer that I'd like to outfit with solar and whatever electronics are needed to keep the two 12V batteries topped off. Mainly so we can go up to one month without running a generator or plugging in. I just want to be able to run lights in the evening, heater at night and some two-way radios, maybe a DC powered small flat screen TV no more than an hour every other day.

As far as finance, are you doing anything with precious metals, bags of junk silver coins buried around the property? Even if you don't answer (security through obscurity) it may be worth considering. Precious metals that is, not necessarily burying it.

Of course you don't want to answer that and this next question together but I'm curious what part of the country you're in? I love and miss the high desert of California.

[Gideon35T]

Thanks for the support. I'm just sick of riding the train. Especially as the train looks to be coming up on a busted bridge.

For your camper - Running an electric heating element is a no go. They are basically controlled shorts and draw MASSIVE amounts of juice. I'd suggest taking care of heat with a Mr Heater portable Buddy hooked up to a standard grill size propane tank. Should give you about 60 hours of constant 9,000 btu's on high or 120 hours on low (4,000 btu's). If you run LED lighting you could literally turn a dozen lights on and draw less than 30 watts. I have a 17" or 19" flatscreen tv which draws a maximum of 17 watts. A laptop with a large screen will draw the same and gives you more options while having an internal battery though. Convert everything to watts and the math isn't too bad. If you don't want to get too involved I'd suggest a pair of Harbor Freight 45w kits (~$140 each) plus one 12v deep cell marine battery. That will probably cover you just fine. You will need an inverter to power anything AC though. A 400w car inverter will run everything you mentioned (minus a heater) no problem and only cost ~$30. The car inverters wont last forever but you wont be abusing it.

As ex-military I fully understand the true meaning of OPSEC. However, I find the idea of bartering (the reason why most people like me do precious metals) a fools thought. Engaging in barter is an operational/strategic nightmare unless you have a substantial force. The only use is if you believe in the market and wish to make a profit with decreasing dollar value. I could go on for hours but to answer your question I do have some precious metals. I liquidated a bunch a few month back but I keep a minimum just in case.

I'm in Arizona. Not the easiest environment for being self sufficient but it certainly has its perks. Plus, if a SHTF scenario ever did happen the area becomes depopulated quickly. You can't live in the desert if the infrastructure fails. Unless you're doing what I'm doing that is ;-)

Feel free to post whatever questions tickle your fancy.

[pdlarson]

I should have been more specific about the heater. We have a big, about 24ft camper. It has two 12V deep cycle batteries and a propane ducted forced air heater. The electric is just for the fan. No power (or no propane) = no heat. We have never exhausted the propane supply and we're not trying to be fully self sufficient so not trying to do without ever refilling the two 30lb propane tanks. I just want to go more than a week without killing the two batteries.

Some peeps use PM as a store of value, others keep sacs of junk silver coins or 1-10 oz silver bars for trade after what they think is the inevitable downfall of the dollar or the zombie apocalypse. Not so much to force a barter but simply to buy things with after the dollar is dead. Some metals forums are hilarious, silver hoarders have wet dreams of being the only person on Earth who can go to the store and buy stuff with their bag of old silver currency.

Arizona can be beautiful. Flagstaff and St George Utah is are some of my favorite areas of the country.

Thanks for the insights.