Gideon35T Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 He's cheap. And he's slightly off-balance ... ... ... No arguement here ... ... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yangotang Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 He's cheap. And he's slightly off-balance I don't get it. Going off-grid is not "cheap" by any regard. You're going to pay at least ~100% more per kWh. How do you plan to make that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 He doesn't plan to use very much power. He has no TV for instance. He also has no nor will he have children so this is his survivalist occupation. Going off grid is the millennium's equivalent of last century's having a nuclear bunker in your backyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yangotang Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 In our current utility rate structure that varies very little between states, the less you use the cheaper it is. Let's say he's within the "baseline" usage. The cheapest cost of electricity in america is ~8c/kWh. How is he going to beat that rate with an off-grid system? Surely I don't think this is the cheapest way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 propane... and propane accessories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge_Brownie Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I don't get it. Going off-grid is not "cheap" by any regard. You're going to pay at least ~100% more per kWh. How do you plan to make that work? Then you should ask him for his numbers. He has already posted how long he thinks it will take him to cross his initial investment cost. From there, he seems to believe that this lifestyle will cost him less. Now combine with giving up things like a car, I don't doubt it. But will his methods of generating electricity cost less than a line to the house? Maybe not. But the root of the problem is his poorly defined ambiguous use of the term "off the grid" to refer to many aspects of life beyond the power grid, and your literal impression that he is simply talking about the power company's line to the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yang his goal is to become largely self sufficient so it's not about immediate costs. It's about independence to survive the future worldwide collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 It's about independence to survive the future worldwide collapse. Thats the question, are the chances that great it will happen in your lifetime? Odds don't point in that direction, but I guess its a fun fantasy for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon35T Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Bunch of replies so I'll respond in order with comment number ... 62 - The off grid power portion isn't cheap but self sufficiency as a whole is. However, even expensive systems tend to pay for themselves around the 10y mark nowadays. 63 - Sounds about right. Though it's less about survivalism and more about getting back to our roots. Call it "Modern Amish" ;-) lol 64 - It takes years to recoup the initial investment cost. However, I was literally paying more in surcharges then I was on my bill. So it goes beyond simple watts/dollars 65 - The only downside to propane is that one can't produce it ones self. I do have a large tank (100 gallons ish) for backup/emergencies though. 66 - My reason for leaving "off grid" open is to promote questions. I'm beyond off grid and into self sufficiency. So my circumstances are taken to a greater extreme with many more factors. 67 - Independance YES, apocalypse NO - If it happens it happens but it's only mildly factored into my design/planning. 68 - The definition ofan apocalypse is a little loose to generalize to that degree. A dollar collapse would be a national apocalypse for example. I want you guys to realize that this isn't some crazy; the aliens are coming, solar flares are going to destroy everything, the government is out to get us, china is buying up tin foil so we can't make hats - etc etc etc This is about a choice in lifestyle that is both healthy and cost effective. Imagine if you were 100% self sufficient. Your only annual expense (besides things you opt into) would be property taxes. I realize it sounds funny but I've used the term "Modern Amish" to describe it to lots of people. It's a lifestyle choice not based on religion but based on a desire and goal oriented decision process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfishing3 Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 i think its cool what you are doing, i'm just not prepared to make those sacrifices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 100% self sufficient? I think you mean self reliant since I don't read any plans here for growing your own cotton or raising sheep for wool and producing your own clothing. I come from a long tradition of developing a self reliant household that can survive short term disasters and long term shocks. And there's a big leap between self reliance and self sufficiency. You're clearly moving in that direction in certain areas but it sounds like you may be stopping short of complete independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon35T Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 i think its cool what you are doing, i'm just not prepared to make those sacrifices. Most people aren't. While you could have a big screen tv and everything a normal house does you wouldn't be able to be self sufficient and it would cost a small fortune. Fear is another big issue. Fear of the unknown and overwhelming amount if information anyways. It's taken years of research for me to be comfortable with it all. Keep in mind though, you can make progress that is better in the long run without paying a lot, working hard, or sacrificing anything. Baby steps, haha. 100% self sufficient? I think you mean self reliant since I don't read any plans here for growing your own cotton or raising sheep for wool and producing your own clothing. I come from a long tradition of developing a self reliant household that can survive short term disasters and long term shocks. Then you didn't read back far enough. Clothing was addressed when I covered "value added". There's not enough "value added" to outweigh simply purchasing a lifetime supply of some items. I could have dairy animals added into the fold but it becomes a lot more money/time/energy for not a lot of value added when you consider what I can bulk purchase. The only downside to opting out of certain things like that is I have a ton of space dedicated to just storage. The logistics for that space alone can be a pain, haha. Plus I never said that I was going to be self sufficient 100%. That's an unreasonable goal without a group (like the Amish). There's compromises in everything. If I thought I could truly be 100% there then the only money I would set aside would be for taxes. However, I realize that I will always have a cost of living and therefor have saved money alloted for such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I saw your mention for clothes, what I was contending was the usage of the term self sufficiency. You're Off The Grid which means you plan to be relatively self sufficient energy wise. You're still going to need to replace those batteries and other core components at some point - mechanical devices have an engineered or expected lifespan as you've stated - so you're still not entirely self sufficient there. But you're dependent on the outside world for other commodities - even if you stock up. That's why I said you're sitting on the continuum of total dependence and total self sufficiency. The term generally used is Self Reliant for where you sit though you're leaning more toward true self sufficiency than most. I realize I'm quibbling and that it just may be a question of vocabulary used by various factions of the community but I think the term has a purist connection to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon35T Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Electricity is a want and not really a need. I do plan to continue the system however. Batteries will need to be replaced every 10-15 years. Even if battery tech stayed the same that would be a cost of $40-$60 per year. We've switched away from many electric tools that most people use without even thinking about it. Heck, we even use a 2 speed hand crank blender that can chop ice like a normal blender, haha. I do agree with your choice in vocabulary differences. However, a great deal must be broken down for those who are unfamiliar or new to the topic. For instance, "Solar power" is a very broad term that most of us use to describe "Photovoltaic Systems". Anyways, the whole thing is really a process. Much like a car owned by an enthusiasts really. That car is never truly "done". There's always adjustments and improvements to be made. Like my current issue with the wood stove. While the system already exists and functions (albiet with issues currently) I'm altering an aspect of the setup to fix my creasote problem. I'm mostly interested in sharing my perspective and knowledge on the topic with those who have questions or wish to debate optimal design choices. There's so much that goes into it that there's really no shortage of topics that anyone might be interested in. I also have a few things unique to my setup like a surprisingly small PV system paired with seperately PV powered subsystems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyROTech Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I thought about it but I'm unable to design a system that doesn't require a pump. I've designed everything to have as few failure points as possible. I mean, I could just build it and buy a bunch of back up pumps but there's still concern of water damage. It's certainly a possibility but not on the agenda at the moment as there's simply too much other stuff to do, haha. Mind you, hot water for showers and such is heated by the sun for most of the year in a batch hot water system I built from an old electric water heater. I think the wood from trees that died in the fire is my bad wood problem. As I've been rotating through the cords of wood which all came from different places and have had different drying times but all died in that fire or earlier. I'd like to avoid the house burning down thing if possible. It's just that it would be really inconvienent and I'm not sure I'd have time to let the girlfriend out of her crate. what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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