Tuning With Turbotuner On A Built 850R

[Über855R]

This is a thread to discuss my experiences using turbo tuner and get advice on how to best tune my motor.

I know this is next to impossible but I would appreciate if we could restrict comments to relevant tuning knowledge so that this could be a good resource thread for others. If you have related comments or questions that do not contribute useful tuning knowledge feel free to PM me or comment in the engine build thread in the show room, "Getting Back Into The Volvo Scene."

The setup:

Built 2.3L motor.

9.5:1 compression ratio

Forged pistons and rods

NA cams

Bored throttle body

Ported and Flowed Head, ~15% increase over stock

3" intake pipe, stock MAF

UR pulley

Garrett GT3076R

Bosch green injectors

Walbro 255 fuel pump

3" Dp and 2.5" ipd exhaust

FMIC

Mangacore wires, MSD coil, stock plugs and distributor

91 octane pump gas

The motor has about 1000 miles on it and is currently running 8-10 psi. I am looking to get a descent timing map and fuel table for this level boost and keep it as the "girlfriend" tune, should she ever need to drive the car. Once that is set I will start upping the boost.

Let's start with timing. What is a good starting advance out of boost? In the <3k rpm range? How soon should the advance come on once out of idle range? Also, what is a reasonable advance for a road car at idle?

What are good AFR's in the 5"Hg to 0 psi range? What is a good EGT range, read right before the turbo, for regular driving? How hot should I expect EGT's to get doing a slow pull at low throttle up a hill? Again this is measured right before the turbo inlet.

At this level boost should I be worried about pulling back timing once the boost comes in? If so, how much?

Any constructive comments are welcome and I greatly appreciate the help from people who have tuned similar setups.

[prasamin]

Has CJ tuned a similar setup? I think he would be your best resource. Either that, or see what George has to say. Trent up in the 51st state had TT on one of his cars and had tuned also, but not sure if he still has it. I won't be tuning mine for a while, so I can't help you right now. Maybe if you get yours setup, it will be a good base for me to start from, because we have similar setups, except my turbo is a little bigger, and I have a manual.

[Über855R]

Has CJ tuned a similar setup? I think he would be your best resource. Either that, or see what George has to say. Trent up in the 51st state had TT on one of his cars and had tuned also, but not sure if he still has it. I won't be tuning mine for a while, so I can't help you right now. Maybe if you get yours setup, it will be a good base for me to start from, because we have similar setups, except my turbo is a little bigger, and I have a manual.

I would be happy to share my tunes when you are ready. The major difference from my car and George or Cj's is the 9.5:1 compression as far as I know. Those maps could certainly give me a guideline to look at though. If someone knows the approximate difference in timing from the compression change that would probably help a lot. (Lucky?) I do have a smog tune for CA smog that passed with flying colors, if you ever have the need.

[prasamin]

Right, skipped over your CR...mine is at stock 8.5:1

I never had TT when I was in CA, but here in TX, it passes perfectly. Mine is a 95 so I just need to pass the sniffer. Either way, I don't have an CEL's or anything of the sort, although I need to talk to CJ because twice in the last week I got a CEL for ECM malfunction, which I remember having when I initially installed TT, but never followed up on it because I was overseas.

[BlackT5]

Can you post screenshots of your current timing and fuel maps so we can see what you're starting with? What sort of AFRs/EGTs are you seeing right now?

Timing is generally going to decrease as the motor enters boost and makes peak torque. After peak torque you can start to add timing back in order to keep the torque curve as flat as possible. Every motor/setup will be different, it's best to do this on a dyno where you can see what the motor likes and make changes accordingly.

AFRs should be 14.5-15.5 under light load out of boost. Transitioning to boost will drop down to mid 13s and as boost increases, AFRs should drop to 11.8-12 under full boost/load as a general guideline.

With 9.5:1 CR, you won't have as much room for error as something low lower compression. What is your target power level? Have to looked into what local dyno shops are in your area? If you don't feel comfortable with what you're doing or lack the knowledge, it's probably a good idea to leave it upto a professional, particularly when you're trying to squeeze a lot of power out of the setup.

[ARD - Lucky]

I'd be happy to share some insights but I can say this, with the Turbo Tuner units I've tuned on it seems quite hard to get consistent results from the ECU. Meaning that a tune operating well one day has trouble maintaining AFR's or suddenly exhibits ignition degradation the next day... even with ambient conditions nearly the same.

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with Turbo Tuner but it certainly seems there's some room for a better understanding of the system and how it operates... at least for me. I've provided tuning now for more than a half dozen folks switching out from TT to M44 because of this same reason. Perhaps there's something we're all missing?

[Über855R]

Can you post screenshots of your current timing and fuel maps so we can see what you're starting with? What sort of AFRs/EGTs are you seeing right now?

AFRs should be 14.5-15.5 under light load out of boost. Transitioning to boost will drop down to mid 13s and as boost increases, AFRs should drop to 11.8-12 under full boost/load as a general guideline.

What is your target power level? Have to looked into what local dyno shops are in your area? If you don't feel comfortable with what you're doing or lack the knowledge, it's probably a good idea to leave it upto a professional, particularly when you're trying to squeeze a lot of power out of the setup.

My current setup is still tweaking a LPT tune doing short pulls on the road. Not sure where it should be just listening to the motor and watching the EGT and AFR. Not exactly a scientific approach, yet. I will post screenshots as soon as I get a chance.

I am basically trying to get 14.7 in vacuum up to about 5" Hg, then something around 13.5 in light load and 11.3 in boost. Basically right in the range where you said, maybe a bit richer for safety.

My target level is probably 330+whp. I don't want to max this stup out I just want a nice running rig that has more power than a 19T tuned 850. I am going to meet with a local tuner and talk options and cost today for some work.

I'd be happy to share some insights but I can say this, with the Turbo Tuner units I've tuned on it seems quite hard to get consistent results from the ECU. Meaning that a tune operating well one day has trouble maintaining AFR's or suddenly exhibits ignition degradation the next day... even with ambient conditions nearly the same.

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with Turbo Tuner but it certainly seems there's some room for a better understanding of the system and how it operates... at least for me. I've provided tuning now for more than a half dozen folks switching out from TT to M44 because of this same reason. Perhaps there's something we're all missing?

I appreciate any input you are willing to offer along the way. Also I recognize that the short comings of turbo tuner you mention could be a limitation on the success of my tuning efforts. Thank you for chiming in. I have noticed some inconsistencies day to day and so far have chalked it up to different conditions and inadequate logging capabilities, could be that other factors are coming into play.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a tune for M4.4 that would support the mods I have done? At this point I own TT so that is a major selling point on sticking with it. But if I end up hiring out many hours on the dyno it could turn out that switching ems could be cheaper.

At this point I am experiencing a rich condition at WOT in the upper rpm range, and the EGT temp spikes at the same time. What would be a suitable approach to remedy this? Also I read that 1600*F is the max you ever want to see on EGT but what is the max preferred temp for road cruising?

Also, if someone could comment on the interaction between timing changes and AFR readings. If I get my AFR readings where I want them and pull some timing should my AFR be staying the same? It seems like when I pull a bit of timing it skews my AFR readings and I need to go back and massage my AFR's to compensate. Does this sound normal?

[Zappo]

As long as your cam timing is set correctly, I would start with fuel first. Do you know what your cams are set at?

It will take a long time if you just have an AFR gauge and no logging. The fuel table is based on RPM vs Load, so throttle position is nice to have.

330 whp won't be an issue for you given that I have achieved that already with less compression.

I'd be happy to share some insights but I can say this, with the Turbo Tuner units I've tuned on it seems quite hard to get consistent results from the ECU. Meaning that a tune operating well one day has trouble maintaining AFR's or suddenly exhibits ignition degradation the next day... even with ambient conditions nearly the same.

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with Turbo Tuner but it certainly seems there's some room for a better understanding of the system and how it operates... at least for me. I've provided tuning now for more than a half dozen folks switching out from TT to M44 because of this same reason. Perhaps there's something we're all missing?

I haven't had this problem with mine. The biggest issue I had was it wasn't able to control the injectors I was using at idle very well. I changed the injectors and that problem went away.

[lookforjoe]

Since you have higher compression (why??) I'd take the provided tuned TT map & pull say 2º over the entire map over 30% load on up, then go from there.

PIcs of your fuel WOT & IGN maps would help.

Without being able to log timing, ME4.3 is trickier than ME4.4

I have EGT's in the 1300-1400ºF range (measured at the header collector, under #4 runner) under part throttle cruising (IE on a extended grade) My AFR's stay in the 14.7-15.2 range until I'm over 2-3psi boost, which doesn't happen below 4K rpm.

I calibrate the main fuel map once the engine is fully warm, for 14.7-15.2 AFR. My WB02 is just downstream of the system 02. If you didn't calibrate on a fully warm engine, go back & do it over, making sure to pull & clear any codes first.

I do see quirky AFR's on occasion - usually it will happen if I do a few hard pulls, shut down & restart within an hour or so. They always stabilize for me, so I don't give it much thought any more.

Lean out the WOT map in the rpm range you are seeing the rich condition/high EGT. Too rich is definitely a recipe for high EGT's and potential engine damage.

Hard to correlate timing & AFR with no logging. Under various load conditions you could be seeing richer AFR's because timing is being pulled due to knock. Partly have to go by 'feel'. Make a DET can, that will let you listen for knock. Copper tube mounted between the two KS. Piece of tubing attached to ear protection.

[Über855R]

As long as your cam timing is set correctly, I would start with fuel first. Do you know what your cams are set at?

It will take a long time if you just have an AFR gauge and no logging. The fuel table is based on RPM vs Load, so throttle position is nice to have.

330 whp won't be an issue for you given that I have achieved that already with less compression.

I haven't had this problem with mine. The biggest issue I had was it wasn't able to control the injectors I was using at idle very well. I changed the injectors and that problem went away.

I have some logging, my nexus gauges can log AFR, boost and EGT. I am using the torque app which can log all the obd2 info, like tps, rpm, load, MAF, timing. The problem lies in reading them at this point since I have info all over the place and no way to see it all together, yet. I do not know what Cj set my cams at but I will find out. It's nice to know you guys are doing okay with TT because I really don't want to spend any more money on this car right now.

Since you have higher compression (why??) I'd take the provided tuned TT map & pull say 2º over the entire map over 30% load on up, then go from there.

PIcs of your fuel WOT & IGN maps would help.

Without being able to log timing, ME4.3 is trickier than ME4.4

I have EGT's in the 1300-1400ºF range (measured at the header collector, under #4 runner) under part throttle cruising (IE on a extended grade) My AFR's stay in the 14.7-15.2 range until I'm over 2-3psi boost, which doesn't happen below 4K rpm.

I calibrate the main fuel map once the engine is fully warm, for 14.7-15.2 AFR. My WB02 is just downstream of the system 02. If you didn't calibrate on a fully warm engine, go back & do it over, making sure to pull & clear any codes first.

I do see quirky AFR's on occasion - usually it will happen if I do a few hard pulls, shut down & restart within an hour or so. They always stabilize for me, so I don't give it much thought any more.

Lean out the WOT map in the rpm range you are seeing the rich condition/high EGT. Too rich is definitely a recipe for high EGT's and potential engine damage.

Hard to correlate timing & AFR with no logging. Under various load conditions you could be seeing richer AFR's because timing is being pulled due to knock. Partly have to go by 'feel'. Make a DET can, that will let you listen for knock. Copper tube mounted between the two KS. Piece of tubing attached to ear protection.

The higher compression was used because I don't plan on milking this for all the power it can give. Cj and I decided on a motor that would have plenty of off boost power, hoping to be able to get up and go while driving around town.

So you are saying use the HPT tuned example and pull 2* of timing only in the higher load areas, above 30%. Then tune fuel at that range. I'm assuming pulling time would be to accommodate the higher compression. Sounds reasonable, is that the only time the timing will be different? I will post my maps as soon as I get a chance, but as of now they are trial and error maps (emphasis on error) and I will likely start over using your suggestion.

You are saying 14.7 is okay all the way into ~3 psi of boost. Okay, I can handle that. Although for me that happens around 2800rpm.

So the low AFR readings and high EGT are both likely a symptom of the rich mixture at wot. You are saying I just pull the sliders down in the full throttle tab and don't adjust the main fuel table for that problem. That seems much easier, does that sound about right?

I will look into making a Det can. Do you just run it through the window to listen?

I really appreciate all the help and suggestions guys. It's a lonely road with just me tuning and my neighbor riding along pushing buttons while I drive. Hopefully when the books I ordered on turbo ems tuning arrive I will get a better handle on the nuances of this process.

[lookforjoe]

Lower the WOT sliders Only in the rpm columns wher you are seeing the rich condition; save the tune with a new appended name, so you can easily revert if need be.

Don't do anything if you have not checked inj calibtration to 14.7-15.2 at idle AND when cruising (minimal throttle, steady position)

Yes, run set can tube up under l/s hood hinge/seal area. I drilled two holes in the ear protection and stuffed the "y" ends into each side. A little jbweld will secure them.

I'll look for a pic of the sound tube bolted to the block.

Edit: if you're not using the EMS bcs control, raise the (boost map) values into the 200's so they don't conflict. With whatever boost controller you're using

[Jardim]

9.5 is scary, unless your running mother E85, but ill be watching closely!

[Über855R]

Timing is generally going to decrease as the motor enters boost and makes peak torque. After peak torque you can start to add timing back in order to keep the torque curve as flat as possible. Every motor/setup will be different, it's best to do this on a dyno where you can see what the motor likes and make changes accordingly.

I was rereading this and have some questions. I'm guessing my butt dyno will approximately feel peak torque? Somewhere right after full boost is where I would imagine to feel it? Would you run a high advance out of boost and start pulling timing as soon as you enter boost, then add a little back towards the top of the range? Are we talking like 32* advance out of boost down to 15* in boost and back to 20* by redline? Can anybody give me some ball parks on the range of timing values I would see?

Lower the WOT sliders Only in the rpm columns wher you are seeing the rich condition; save the tune with a new appended name, so you can easily revert if need be.

Edit: if you're not using the EMS bcs control, raise the (boost map) values into the 200's so they don't conflict. With whatever boost controller you're using

That's a good way to do it. Things have gotten a little jumbled in my project manager. I'm going to have to clean it up a bit.

I will be sure to calibrate each new map I try, thanks for the valuable reminder.

I am using an IPD tcv, which I hope should work out okay.

[JCviggen]

Get a good knock detection system. M4.x is deaf to knock at high rpm. So it won't retard the ignition or anything else if it starts detonating there, and then you end up with pistons that aren't quite the right shape.

Other than that it should be pretty straight forward, my M4.3 TT worked well and without issues. Considering the TT is just a piggyback allowing programming of the OEM ECU there can be no big differences.

[Über855R]

I will be sure to calibrate each new map I try, thanks for the valuable reminder. (yeah, quoting myself)

Um, you are the man Hussein! I had a map that I thought would work but when I loaded it I forgot to calibrate the injectors. Doh! So I went and calibrated the injectors tonight and it was working really nicely. The wot throttle needs adjusting but drivability seemed spot on. It felt so nice I even tried upping the boost, 5% across the whole table. No noticeable difference, max boost at 10 psi. Came in tonight and pulled down the wot fuel and upped the boost 15%. Will try again tomorrow. It feels pretty fast at 10 psi and I am at roughly 5psi boost around 2600 rpm!

I will probably need to get Det cans or a knock sensor before I get the boost up too high. It seems pretty idiot proof at 10 psi but the EGT readings are still at 1400-1500*F when I am on it for a few seconds straight. Is that high enough that I should be backing off as quickly as I have been?