Tuning With Turbotuner On A Built 850R

February 8, 2013

You really need 550CC + injectors before you start raising the boost. Without logging duty cycle, I'd be surprised if you are not already getting close to the limits of the injectors, given the CFM's of that turbo.

Volvo5.0 is using 550cc's, and they can support a somewhat over 300WHP, the greens ain't gonna cut it, IMO.

Update your sig to include your mods, it's a PITA to scroll back to the top to review your hardware each time I have a thought....

Also, what fuel pump do you have? The stock pump isn't going to deliver volume required once you start upping the boost. 350WHP is doable on stock (AWD) pump, but I believe that is higher flow than stock FWD pump.

February 8, 2013

You really need 550CC + injectors before you start raising the boost. Without logging duty cycle, I'd be surprised if you are not already getting close to the limits of the injectors, given the CFM's of that turbo.

Volvo5.0 is using 550cc's, and they can support a somewhat over 300WHP, the greens ain't gonna cut it, IMO.

Update your sig to include your mods, it's a PITA to scroll back to the top to review your hardware each time I have a thought....

Also, what fuel pump do you have? The stock pump isn't going to deliver volume required once you start upping the boost. 350WHP is doable on stock (AWD) pump, but I believe that is higher flow than stock FWD pump.

I'm pretty certain that the greens will suffice for my modest goals. I do have a Wahlbro pump installed, see sig. (like you suggested) The tune I'm trying now is from a guy with a very similar setup running 390whp on greens. I don't plan on going any where close to that. I have been told with a good tune injectors can support 1 HP/cc which should leave me some room to spare for my modest goals. I have figured out a way to sortalog for now. As soon as the rain lets up I will get some more tangible data.

February 8, 2013

My 550cc injectors are only at about 70% duty cycle, so I probably could have kept my greens and still been ok. BUT my turbo is a toy compared to your Garrett, so you're greens are probably going to be at the limit when you start to turn up the boost. Do you have an adjustable FPR? I'm not sure what is considered a safe limit, but you could make the greens flow a little more by cranking up the fuel pressure...

February 9, 2013

I'm pretty certain that the greens will suffice for my modest goals. I do have a Wahlbro pump installed, see sig. (like you suggested) The tune I'm trying now is from a guy with a very similar setup running 390whp on greens. I don't plan on going any where close to that. I have been told with a good tune injectors can support 1 HP/cc which should leave me some room to spare for my modest goals. I have figured out a way to sortalog for now. As soon as the rain lets up I will get some more tangible data.

Yeah, I don't believe it. Does he have any IDC logs to show where they were at? Credible 390 on greens? I'd like to see evidence. Maybe using standalone EMS more could be extracted, but using ME4.x, I just don't see it happening.

February 9, 2013

I don't plan on trying to get that much kick from this build. From what I have seen higher compression allows for a considerable power gain at the same boost level. If Volvo5.0 put down 311whp and says he could have done it on greens it still seems reasonable that this setup could get a little extra without working too hard. As far as the wild claims, wasn't my car so I couldn't say for sure either without video. But I have a credible source that says the same motor and turbo combo did exactly that on greens and turbo tuner with extensive dyno work.

February 9, 2013

Keep in mind that retarding your timing too much is going to contribute to the EGTs being higher, as the ignition event moves closer to the opening of the exhaust valve.

I would get your AFRs in order, then bring it to a tuner and tune it on a dyno, regardless of what EMS you are tuning. You essentially want to start from a linear ignition advance curve at WOT, taking out timing proportionate to the torque curve, if that makes any sense at all. Once torque starts to fall off, add timing back in. Before your turbo is spooled, you can be a little more aggressive/linear. Be very careful around the boost threshold and at your torque peak with timing values, this is where you want to be pulling back the most.

That's just a general rambling on ignition timing. If I was being very cautious, I would want to tune on a dyno, and have my AFRs sorted before going there so as not to spend $100/hr or whatever doing something that can easily be done on the street with a couple of datalogs or some patience and road tuning. Ignition tuning is worth being done on a dyno, AFR tuning is not (my opinion but also the right opinion ).

Don't worry about injectors at this point, I think you would be surprised how far you can go on injectors. My setup now leans out about 22 psi or so, but I am on blues (with pressure raised to be closer to greens). I drive around at 18-19 psi. Obviously, leaning out is an indication of >100% duty cycle, but there's no reason you can't run peaks of 80-85% duty cycle on a street car.

February 9, 2013

Keep in mind that retarding your timing too much is going to contribute to the EGTs being higher, as the ignition event moves closer to the opening of the exhaust valve.

I would get your AFRs in order, then bring it to a tuner and tune it on a dyno, regardless of what EMS you are tuning. You essentially want to start from a linear ignition advance curve at WOT, taking out timing proportionate to the torque curve, if that makes any sense at all. Once torque starts to fall off, add timing back in. Before your turbo is spooled, you can be a little more aggressive/linear. Be very careful around the boost threshold and at your torque peak with timing values, this is where you want to be pulling back the most.

That's just a general rambling on ignition timing. If I was being very cautious, I would want to tune on a dyno, and have my AFRs sorted before going there so as not to spend $100/hr or whatever doing something that can easily be done on the street with a couple of datalogs or some patience and road tuning. Ignition tuning is worth being done on a dyno, AFR tuning is not (my opinion but also the right opinion ).

Don't worry about injectors at this point, I think you would be surprised how far you can go on injectors. My setup now leans out about 22 psi or so, but I am on blues (with pressure raised to be closer to greens). I drive around at 18-19 psi. Obviously, leaning out is an indication of >100% duty cycle, but there's no reason you can't run peaks of 80-85% duty cycle on a street car.

HE'S ALIVEEEEEE!

February 9, 2013

Yeah, I don't believe it. Does he have any IDC logs to show where they were at? Credible 390 on greens? I'd like to see evidence. Maybe using standalone EMS more could be extracted, but using ME4.x, I just don't see it happening.

My greens were maxing at 100% IDC at ~315djwhp / 18-19psi with the 50 trim.

February 9, 2013

Keep in mind that retarding your timing too much is going to contribute to the EGTs being higher, as the ignition event moves closer to the opening of the exhaust valve.

I would get your AFRs in order, then bring it to a tuner and tune it on a dyno, regardless of what EMS you are tuning. You essentially want to start from a linear ignition advance curve at WOT, taking out timing proportionate to the torque curve, if that makes any sense at all. Once torque starts to fall off, add timing back in. Before your turbo is spooled, you can be a little more aggressive/linear. Be very careful around the boost threshold and at your torque peak with timing values, this is where you want to be pulling back the most.

That seems to hold up to logic. If the fire starts at a later time, then it is still burning when the exhaust valve opens. Thus more heat exiting the cylinder.

I did some sortalogging tonight and this is what I am seeing. When I am at about 3000rpm and 50% load the AFR is around 11.3 boost 8-9 psi and EGT starts to climb too much. That is under somewhat heavy throttle.

A similar situation occurs around 3k and 40-50% load under light throttle approx 5 psi and 12:1 AFR then the EGT starts to climb. Timing is either low, 12* In both situations or it is being pulled by the computer.

Could this be a result of too much timing pull? Or a result of not having enough timing in that range? The AFR's seem good enough to handle the situation.

February 9, 2013

need to compare data logs to the timing map, so you can see if the timing is being pulled in those areas. still need to see screen shots of your maps.

for example...

These are scaled for 3" ID MAF housing.

this log (off the above timing map) is in 3rd gear - you can see that @ anywhere close to 100 MAF %100 throttle, I'm getting timing that either matches or is higher than the 100% values of the timing map, so safe to say no timing pull (this is significantly different than my old setup (60-1 on TD05HL hotside) where the EBP was much higher, EGT's were higher, timing was being pulled) Ignore the EGT values, the scaling was off in Logworks.

February 9, 2013

Has CJ tuned a similar setup? I think he would be your best resource. Either that, or see what George has to say. Trent up in the 51st state had TT on one of his cars and had tuned also, but not sure if he still has it. I won't be tuning mine for a while, so I can't help you right now. Maybe if you get yours setup, it will be a good base for me to start from, because we have similar setups, except my turbo is a little bigger, and I have a manual.

You funny Guy Pras. :lol:

February 9, 2013

need to compare data logs to the timing map, so you can see if the timing is being pulled in those areas. still need to see screen shots of your maps.

for example...

These are scaled for 3" ID MAF housing.

[img=http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/huseinholland/TTandWothDataLogs/PTEjun14thTiming.png]

this log (off the above timing map) is in 3rd gear - you can see that @ anywhere close to 100 MAF 0 throttle, I'm getting timing that either matches or is higher than the 100% values of the timing map, so safe to say no timing pull (this is significantly different than my old setup (60-1 on TD05HL hotside) where the EBP was much higher, EGT's were higher, timing was being pulled) Ignore the EGT values, the scaling was off in Logworks.

[img=http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/huseinholland/TTandWothDataLogs/60-100Jun16data.png]

It looks like I am getting a timing pull compared to the map I was using. The map was reading 20 and the log was reading 13 degrees advance. I have some video and will take some screen shots.

If I am uploading to photobucket what code is appropriate to embed the photos and videos here? I used to be able to do it but lately I just get links when I use the old methods.

February 9, 2013

Apologies for the multiple posts.

My greens were maxing at 100% IDC at ~315djwhp / 18-19psi with the 50 trim.

If I really get the itch for more power later it seems I will need to consider add ons like RRFPR, larger injectors, and water injection. Comparatively it does seem hard to beleive that anybody could get 390whp on the same injectors that you maxed out. This figure seems similar to the power figures 5.0Volvo was estimating for greens.

I am not too hung up on numbers. I bet my car would feel plenty fast in the 310-320whp range. It was already hard to keep the tires from spinning with the 19t and that was considerably less powerful.

February 9, 2013

@Hussien, you provided your ignition map with the disclaimer that it was a map for a 3" MAF. Why does that matter for ignition timing? When changing to a 3" MAF aren't you scaling just the VE map?

February 9, 2013

Here is a screen shot of timing and accompanying videos, first light cruising, second heavy throttle. As you can see I have to back off pretty quick because of the high EGT readings. The red area is where the problem seems to be occurring, If someone can tell me how to embed video and pictures it will make this a little easier.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Bendino1/FreewayPull1TimingScreenShot_zps53dba382.jpg

This is a cruising situation where the offensive condition occurs. The first video has the obd scan data overlayed. The second is a close up replay of the gauges.

http://s66.beta.photobucket.com/user/Bendino1/media/FreewayCruise1_zpse80ea7c9.mp4.html

http://s66.beta.photobucket.com/user/Bendino1/media/FreewayCruise1a_zps85d0738a.mp4.html

This is a freeway pull situation, same as before, first video is live, the second is a close up replay of the gauges.

http://s66.beta.photobucket.com/user/Bendino1/media/FreewayPull1_zps84e707f4.mp4.html

http://s66.beta.photobucket.com/user/Bendino1/media/FreewayPull1a_zps390bd1c9.mp4.html

The photobucket embedding code is obviously not working. Someone please share the mystery of new embedding syntax since everything I have searched about embedding on forums doesn't seem to work on VS anymore.

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Tuning With Turbotuner On A Built 850R

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