Tightmopedman9 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 For clarification, this is where my EGT probe is: I see about 750-810C cruising with medium load. At high load and ~5psi I hold about 870-880C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 When you are on part throttle for a few seconds does the temp move up to 1400 or if you are on it for any length of time? That seems to be what I am seeing and wondering if it is just the placement making it read hot or if I should be worried. I'm not getting good pulls in for tuning because I keep backing off due to EGT spikes. Maybe I should move the probe to the far cylinder near the exhaust port on the head. I have holes all over this manifold so I can basically put it anywhere with a little work. To see 1400ºF when not under heavy load, I have to maintain part throttle/1-2psi boost (where the AFR's stay in the 14's). Otherwise, 1200-1300ºF is more 'normal' for me. Can't really tell where the EGT port is in that pic, (#3 runner?) I thought you said it was in the spacer? Move it closer to the head flange, since you have that option. #4 typically runs the hottest, so there if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Could the high EGT be a symptom of the cams opening the exhaust valve too early? Meaning I need to mechanically adjust the exhaust cam to lower the EGT? No electronic changes seem to make a difference. Zappo is probably thinking, "didn't I say that two days ago?" I think that could be a possibility, also any ignition retard by Motronic as a reaction to knock or what it perceives to be knock will probably raise EGTs. I think I remember when Hussein was having EGT issues there was concurrent timing pull by Motronic at that time (correct me if I'm wrong Hussein!). Keep in mind that antilag as an EMS function is just severe timing retardation to move the ignition event into the turbine (and blow it to pieces if you use it too much). However, if you really are getting detonation from too much timing in the first place, that's the more likely cause of the higher EGTs. I think you really need to isolate which timing bins you are on when you hit your torque peak and refine it from there. FWIW my ignition advance bins around torque peak / initial boost peak (3500 RPM or so) are around 10-14 degrees. (Incidentally I'm pretty embarrassed that my last ignition map was from 2009). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 I think that could be a possibility, also any ignition retard by Motronic as a reaction to knock or what it perceives to be knock will probably raise EGTs. I think I remember when Hussein was having EGT issues there was concurrent timing pull by Motronic at that time (correct me if I'm wrong Hussein!). I think you really need to isolate which timing bins you are on when you hit your torque peak and refine it from there. FWIW my ignition advance bins around torque peak / initial boost peak (3500 RPM or so) are around 10-14 degrees. (Incidentally I'm pretty embarrassed that my last ignition map was from 2009). Dyno logs definitely help with this. I can't remember whether this was 20g or hybrid 60-1 with stock intake manifold (2011), but makes it easier to correlate against TT maps. That setup moved peak torque & HP about 500 rpms higher than previous setup. I need to get new Dyno logs for my current setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted February 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Little update: I checked my EGT cold and it read close to 100 when ambient temp was 50, so I redefined what I interpret as hot by about 50 and moved up my warning a bit. With the new parameter set at a measured 1400 which I suspect is an actual 1350 and after repeated pulls I only shot up in EGT when I would hit a rich or lean condition, otherwise EGT's stayed in the green. I'm going to tune out those rich/lean moments and go from here. Another thing I noticed yesterday was on lift off I saw a boost spike in the range of 22 psi when I was only boosting about 12. I'm wondering if I should be looking at changing out the spring in the recirv valve. As far as spring rates would I be trying to make it open easier on lift off? It seems like that would be the case in which case a weaker spring would be the answer. I also tried the "reduce boost spikes" button in TT which as far as I can tell just reduced the boost values in the boost table on the last row. I just wants to thank everybody again for the helpful input. Also I want to thank 854TGA+ for sending me his old TT maps for a Garrett turbo setup. For people thinking about TT here are some thoughts I am having about the system. Given it is a bit of a pain tuning the car yourself, I am actually having a lot of fun figuring this stuff out and seeing how every tune I load works a bit different. Now I have at least 7 maps that are all reasonably suited to try on the car. Not one has just worked perfectly right away but with a little fuel tweaking they get there pretty quickly. Probably a lot more quickly with a passenger who is well versed in TT. (I wish I had one) Working on my car has never been so clean and fun. Instead of wrenching or pondering problems you go out and drive, then adjust on a computer screen in the car or at my desk with a warm cup of tea and a biscuit. This is a far cry from wrenching in the garage to get the distributor set or install a vacuum advance. I only wish I had a closed road and a tuning guru sitting beside me to do this, then things could happen more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted February 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Rant: I'm so pissed at autometer right now. They discontinued the nexus gauges and will not support the software, will not release software unlock and will not release any info about the programming used since it is proprietary information. Forget that it is discontinued proprietary information, still won't release anything. If they won't support the system they should at least release the software as a free download for people who already have the system. AAARGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 My Greddy recirc is adjustable, so I just raise/lowered the spring rate until it held the pressure I needed. If yours (quality brand, I assume?) is holding too high a pressure, and it's not adjustable rate, then putting a weaker spring in makes sense. It should open instantly under vacuum, or you may end up damaging the compressor thrust bearing. I agree. It is fun to be able to tweak and adjust as you please. The fact that you can make hardware changes and immediately adjust for them, without having to go back & forth with an outside tuner is priceless, IMO. I've had both my wife & son co-pilot to check for specific rich/lean areas - you can guess which I ask to help with the higher load adjusts , but mostly, I do as you describe, drive, log data, review maps, make adjustments, and try again. It is a long slow process vs. dyno tuning, but I haven't minded (for the most part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappo Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Well when I asked about the cam timing it was more to see what CJ set them to and to make sure you didn't have overlap. I was also curious for my own setup since I am sure I still need to make adjustments to mine. TT is fun to play with and you can see changes right away. A closed road or dyno would make tuning a whole lot faster for sure. I got the fuel pretty close on mine, but never ventured much into the timing before I had an expert work on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted February 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 The saga continues: Things went well today. I tried out a couple of maps and both of them were very nice after a few fuel adjustments. I have stepped back and started looking at this in a much more relaxed way. Perfect drivability and enjoy cruising around in my car, no obsessing over anything just enjoy it and make small adjustments. In this relaxed manner I was able to get two maps able to sustain prolonged boost at 10-12 psi before eventually getting EGT rising. I believe the EGT temps eventually rising are from getting into the part of the maps where more boost would be expected. So the timing isn't advanced enough for low psi conditions and thus giving me high EGT's. I think more boost should solve this. I also worked on nailing down the boost control tonight. With the ipd hd tcv and the TT boost map I was able to get great boost control, now that I understand the values better. I had a gradual curve giving boost and didn't really get into it until 3800 on one map I used. Since my turbo gives much sooner I moved that up until I had 12 psi right about 3300 rpm. Fixing the values at approx. 63 gave me consistent 12 psi almost to redline. (I haven't gone there yet) At 12 psi I think my car is already approaching the acceleration that it had with the 19t at 18 psi. It feels so linear in the way it delivers the boost that there is never any surge like it had with the 19 t. The boost just comes on smooth as silk. I'm so tickled with this motor I could giggle like a school girl. I will try to put up some pictures and video soon for the people requesting. The delay lies in needing a car wash. I gotta keep her clean, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappo Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 You get 12psi at 3300? Still interested in your cam timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 You get 12psi at 3300? Still interested in your cam timing. I think even earlier than that. This thing seems to make boost by 2600 and maybe lots if I open the flood gates. I keep forgetting to ask Cj. As soon as I know, you will know. But knowing Cj he probably put them at exactly what ipd suggests for NA cams, I believe five and four, advance and retard, exhaust and intake respectively iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappo Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 You have a .63 A/R for the turbo? I had a .82 and ordered a .63 housing and installed it, but it seemed to make very little difference. However, I am not sure I actually got what I ordered since the size number cast in was covered up, where as the .82 that came with the turbo is clear to see. I could see no physical difference between the two. I would love to have that much boost at 3300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Über855R Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Bendino1/TimingMap_zpsb7b47ab5.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Bendino1/FuelMap_zps79a0a05e.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Bendino1/BoostMap_zpsb6be118a.jpg These are the current maps I am running. This is about 12 psi and the afrs are basically ironed out. I used a tune from 854GTA+, modified ever so slightly. The car seemed to detonate in the range at the bottom of the timing table so I lowered the advance to 11* and that seemed to go away, it was at 12 previuosly. I considered going down another degree but there doesn't seem to be a problem so I am not messing with it for now. The boost table is fun to play with. I had to keep pushing my boost values lower and lower in the 0-30% load range to try and keep the overboost situation from happening. It seems to be working out but I need more testing to be sure. Things do seem to be working pretty good with the boost control but I might have to chase down a spike still at part throttle in the middle of the load range I got 15 psi a couple of times accidentally. The bypass valve seems to be doing its job, even at low boost levels on lift off I can hear it fluttering open. I think my boost spikes are just from boost control issues. The gauge shot up to 20-22 psi for a half second or so. Scary. But the big flashing lights did a good job of letting me know and I backed off. It's amazing how quickly this turbo can build boost. I imagine when I actually want 18-20 psi it will be there at a moments notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightmopedman9 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 It may just be me, but those pictures are tiny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 These are the current maps I am running. This is about 12 psi and the afrs are basically ironed out. I used a tune from 854GTA+, modified ever so slightly. The car seemed to detonate in the range at the bottom of the timing table so I lowered the advance to 11* and that seemed to go away, it was at 12 previuosly. I considered going down another degree but there doesn't seem to be a problem so I am not messing with it for now. Fixed links. Looks like the maps could use more refining. Not sure why there is so little timing in some areas. Fuel map usually you want a little more fuel in the peak (mid range) areas. Transitions can be smoothed better - I wouldn't have the same values from 6-35% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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