The Nsa And You!

[Che'_Moderator]

So are you not bothered by the principle of the matter? You just don't care because it doesn't affect you, eh? What if they kick in your door and claim you were a terrorist because you were competing with the government's friend in the private sector, and they wanted to alleviate any competition? That's the mentality that allows this kind of bullshit to exist unchecked.

I can ride my bike with no handlebars... no handlebars... no handlebars...

That was 2008. The door kicking and probably the Flobots song. Doesn't bother me one bit. Odds are better that I will be mauled by a polar bear and grizzly bear at the same time as I am struck by lightning. Worry about things that matter and are likely. Or how about this. Just worry about things you can control and do not worry about the rest.

[Burn-E]

But here's the point Chuck, we the people can control this. If enough Americans were to get up in arms over this you better believe Congress and the President would put the kibosh on the illegal surveillance programs. It's the complacency that kills me. I motivated my neighborhood to stand up against Canadian National and plans they had for behind our houses. We stormed city hall with a very motivated crowd and a signed petition for the entire neighborhood. CN's plans got creamed and we're getting compensated for the problems they caused.

It will always work this way in this country. One man and a cause can quickly become millions and a movement.

[Che'_Moderator]

But here's the point Chuck, we the people can control this. If enough Americans were to get up in arms over this you better believe Congress and the President would put the kibosh on the illegal surveillance programs.

LOL. No they won't. They will just tell you what you want to hear and keep doing it. Whatever helps you sleep though.

[Commander Riker]

That was 2008. The door kicking and probably the Flobots song. Doesn't bother me one bit. Odds are better that I will be mauled by a polar bear and grizzly bear at the same time as I am struck by lightning. Worry about things that matter and are likely. Or how about this. Just worry about things you can control and do not worry about the rest.

I think the mindset that "it's not likely to happen to me" puts you into the crowd of "well if you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't bother you."

I'm curious... at which point does a government become tyrannical enough that you are concerned, if at all? Or is that only when they are kicking your door in? Did you say you wouldn't resist if they did, so it beyond that?

I honestly believe we can do better then this... and our government is a result of people allowing it to just do what it wants.

[Burn-E]

LOL. No they won't. They will just tell you what you want to hear and keep doing it. Whatever helps you sleep though.

And the Republic is in a sad state if that's where things are now.

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends than that good men should look on and do nothing." John Stuart Mills

[Che'_Moderator]

And the Republic is in a sad state if that's where things are now.

Always been that way. I think people are just starting to see it.

[Burn-E]

That's not true though. Post Hoover and Nixon there was a hard shift to hold the government accountable and lots of loose warrantless wire tapping was reined in. It was only post 9/11 that the Bush Administration recalibrated and promoted the idea of doing whatever was necessary damn the consequences.

[Che'_Moderator]

That's not true though. Post Hoover and Nixon there was a hard shift to hold the government accountable and lots of loose warrantless wire tapping was reined in. It was only post 9/11 that the Bush Administration recalibrated and promoted the idea of doing whatever was necessary damn the consequences.

First off it is so easy to get a federal wire tap its basically pointless. Second, not even. Wire taps for pretty much anything national security related have always been done warrant or no warrant. If the GOV was not doing things that it didnt't want the citizens to know, we would not have a clearance system. Not saying its right, but its always been this way in our life times.

[Burn-E]

I think you're failing to differentiate between wiretaps for citizens / domestic targets vs. foreign / non-citizen targets. There is and should be a very bright line between these two. If what you claim is occurring against citizen domestic targets then I'm not even sure why we have the 4th Amendment now.

[Che'_Moderator]

If what you claim is occurring against citizen domestic targets then I'm not even sure why we have the 4th Amendment now.

I really hope you are kidding.

[Fudge_Brownie]

Against twats. If the feds kick in my door I have no plan to complain.

With a warrant, following proper protocol? What about without, no knock, no announce, and they always shoot the dogs. And strictly because I'm trying to get at specific scenario, let's also assume you don't get to the weapons depot we all assume is next to the wine cellar.

Worry about things that matter and are likely. Or how about this. Just worry about things you can control and do not worry about the rest.

Still crazy that you of all people advocate not caring. Are you just trolling? The last one left who still cares is the one you respect? Why argue guns then? Gov will do what they want... (Yes, I saw your 80% video)

[Che'_Moderator]

Why argue guns then? Gov will do what they want... (Yes, I saw your 80% video)

Yes they will. And so will people. No one is not going to break the law just because the GOV collects meta-data. Traffic analysis is just part of the age we live in. Anything you should be doing will be in the noise.

[Burn-E]

No Chuck, I'm not kidding. If the government is resorting to domestic spying on a massive scale then the 4th Amendment is worthless in dealing with the inappropriate capture of evidence against an individual. The majority of our important and every day documents / communication has transitioned to electronic means. It's why the USPS is going out of business. So what exactly does it mean when we say:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Papers today = electronic communication. What the NSA is doing is by definition unreasonable search and seizure and a clear violation of the current and original interpretation of that first clause. There are no if, ands or buts about that.

[Che'_Moderator]

Papers today = electronic communication.

Not according to the high court you seem to like to quote. S

[Burn-E]

Katz v. United States and United States v. U.S. District Court says otherwise. You got other prevailing cases? Let's see them. I'm willing to be educated but I'm pretty certain the precedence is pointing in the other direction here.

You've got access to LexisNexis and West Law - show me what they say.

If the Mitchell Doctrine, which claimed that the Attorney General had the inherent constitutional power to authorize electronic surveillance without a warrant in “national security” cases and to unilaterally determine whether a particular circumstance falls within the scope of a “national security” concern was obliterated by the Keith case as US v US DC is called, then this is just another bite at the same apple by the NSA and the same principles apply.