2016 Presidential Campaign

[Timbo Slice]

"So, if it’s the real wage that matters, why is there a fixation on the nominal wage itself? After all, wages, in real terms, could be increased greatly by forcing down food costs and rents. So, why is there not a constant drum beat for grocers to lower their prices to make necessities affordable? Why are activists not picketing outside grocery stores for their high prices? Why are they not outside KB Homes headquarters for KB’s apparently inhumane efforts at selling homes at the highest prices that the market will bear? Why are people not picketing used car dealers for not lowering their prices to make transportation affordable for working families? And why are gas stations strangely exempted from protests over the high cost of gasoline? Certainly, all of these merchants are just as instrumental in determining real wages as any employer. Grocers, landlords, home sellers, and the owner of the corner gas station can put a huge dent in the family budget when they allow their “greed” to impel them to charge the highest prices they can get away with in the market place. "

Call me Alain, but this is worth a read. Not that you're going to change your opinions anyways..

https://mises.org/library/failed-moral-argument-living-wage

[Yellow95]

1 hour ago, Kevin. said:

 

To all of the old guys, you had it good. You could work a summer job and pay for an entire year of college. You could work 40 hours a week and afford a fucking house and a car without a degree, because we used to care about people. Now we just care about profits, and people should just be working harder. That's 100% bullshit, America works some of the longest hours on average of any country yet we have the smallest amount in our savings comparatively speaking. Corporations don't give a flying fuck about you as a person, they just care about money.

Now that is an ignorant statement right there Kevin.  Cmon man.  Do you really think anyone could go to college back in the day on a part time job?  You do understand that things were cheaper BUT the dollar was worth less right?  We got further ahead because as a whole, we worked harder.  We didn't grow up in a society that expected things handed to them.  We didn't take jobs at Mcdonalds thinking one day we would be able to afford a house.  We worked at McDonalds as we furthered our educations or as a stop gap job until we found something better.  We did have it good.  America was great then.  With trumps help it will be again. Wooooot woooooot.

 

1 hour ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

This is not a meaningful post. Show some intelligence.

You wouldn't know what it looks like.  ;)

[ErikS]

3 hours ago, Yellow95 said:

 We did have it good.  America was great then.

When was it good, and when was America great?  Give me a timeline and expound.  Its the thesis of the argument but is empty.  Like your sagging moist balls.

"Sagging Balls Gary" 

That is your name until you can explain why Trump is going to make America great again.

[Timbo Slice]

On 3/29/2016 at 9:05 AM, Yellow95 said:

Oh shit.

[Kevin.]

Gary, comparatively speaking (with inflation) everything was so much cheaper for the older guys. A full time minimum wage job would pay for college, good luck doing that now and having a place to live. It's not that you busted your ass more, it's just that things were much cheaper back then

[Yellow95]

19 hours ago, ErikS said:

When was it good, and when was America great?  Give me a timeline and expound.  Its the thesis of the argument but is empty.  Like your sagging moist balls.

"Sagging Balls Gary" 

That is your name until you can explain why Trump is going to make America great again.

I'll explain to anybody but you. You don't even have a right to know you don't vote. You're just one of those complainers that love to complain about everything but don't want to be any part of the change that needs to come to make it happen. That's what I'm going to call you complainer no balls to vote Erik..

2 hours ago, Kevin. said:

Gary, comparatively speaking (with inflation) everything was so much cheaper for the older guys. A full time minimum wage job would pay for college, good luck doing that now and having a place to live. It's not that you busted your ass more, it's just that things were much cheaper back then

Lol ok. You read about it and I lived it but you know more. LOL there was no minimum wage job that would pay somebody through college. That you're just being ignorant.

[Fudge_Brownie]

7 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

I'll explain to anybody but you. You don't even have a right to know you don't vote. You're just one of those complainers that love to complain about everything but don't want to be any part of the change that needs to come to make it happen. That's what I'm going to call you complainer no balls to vote Erik..

This does nothing for the conversation. It is wasted words. What's the point of this thread if you're just do the tough guy routine? Take that down to your nearest bar.

13 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

Lol ok. You read about it and I lived it but you know more. LOL there was no minimum wage job that would pay somebody through college. That you're just being ignorant.

Source

According to that data, the cost of a public four year has quadrupled, when accounting for inflation. That's even more than I was expecting, so maybe there's other data out there that shows it isn't as steep. But the point stands. And last minimum wage charts I've seen, IIRC, through the 60's in to the 70's, minimum wage was worth more. I think by the mid 70's it was roughly the same. 2.5k a year in 2015 dollars with 2015 minumum wage seems fairly possible, but certainly not $9.5k.

What the chart does not account for is I'm pretty sure the degree often gets a slightly higher paying job when compared to back then. And there is more subsidization for college today. However, that does not negate a 4x increase in costs.

[Yellow95]

 show me anything in that thread that was tough guy. Once again you just try to make yourself relevant by butting into something that is none of your business. I was answering Eric question had nothing to do with you. I find your fixation with me both disturbing and kind of exciting. Would you like my phone number?

Kevin, in 1984 minimum wage was 335 an hour. I brought home less than $100 a week. You tell me how I could have paid for my college my rent my electricity my insurance in my car on that. Please, explain that to me. I'm not sure how but but fudgies going to try to turn this into a tough guy statement. Let's see how he spins it. I know he'll be sniffing around my butt any second now.

[gmsgltr]

why cant we all just love each other 

[Yellow95]

15 minutes ago, gmsgltr said:

why cant we all just love each other 

That's the funny thing. He doesn't understand. I've had a beer with Kevin.  one day we got through with a tense back and forth in this thread and then he got a Carfax for me.. I've spoken to Erik on several occasions and would gladly have a beer with him.  Timo has touched me intimately.  Hell Greg you and I are about as close of friends as a grandfather and a grandson could be.  I have had off thread conversations with Alain .  Do I get passionate about my politics? Damn right I do. I think that's what politics is about. Differences. What he doesn't understand is that at the end of the day we are all still a small group of friends. Hell families don't get along all the time, why should we.  

[ErikS]

1 hour ago, Yellow95 said:

I'll explain to anybody but you. You don't even have a right to know you don't vote. You're just one of those complainers that love to complain about everything but don't want to be any part of the change that needs to come to make it happen. That's what I'm going to call you complainer no balls to vote Erik..

I have to go in person next week to renew my driver's license, so I'll register to vote for a party as well Saggy Balls Gary.

Will you answer my question then?

[Fudge_Brownie]

55 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

 show me anything in that thread that was tough guy. Once again you just try to make yourself relevant by butting into something that is none of your business. I was answering Eric question had nothing to do with you. I find your fixation with me both disturbing and kind of exciting. Would you like my phone number?

Kevin, in 1984 minimum wage was 335 an hour. I brought home less than $100 a week. You tell me how I could have paid for my college my rent my electricity my insurance in my car on that. Please, explain that to me.

Butt in? I didn't realize this was your private discussion. "I'll explain to anybody but you.". He asked a question, you refused to answer. My fixation is with the trolling. I've also said to Kevin that he needs to try a little harder instead of just parroting Gawker headlines about Bernie - So don't think you're special. You're pumping bullshit in here, and then trying to play the victim.

So... let's go somewhere interesting with the discussion:

55 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

Kevin, in 1984 minimum wage was 335 an hour. I brought home less than $100 a week. You tell me how I could have paid for my college my rent my electricity my insurance in my car on that. Please, explain that to me.

Source

Minimum wage was worth more between 1970 to 1980 than it is today. Yet the cost of college has quadrupled. Since you said 1984, $2918 (2015 dollars) for college in 1985 on what, $6.50/hr (2014 dollars, eyeballing chart) is far more feasible. I don't think I'd support Kevin's original point that someone could work minimum wage job AND pay for college completely but it's far more possible back then than it is now. Paying for half of it, and a loan for the other half seems possible. Car insurance? Live in the city, go to school in the city, no car. Bicycle and public transportation.

$6.50/hr 40hrs, 50 wks (2 weeks unpaid vacation) call it 85% takehome after taxes*, is $920/mo. $243/mo for yearly college ($2918/12). Leaves $677 for rent, electricity, food, and clothing.

*I'm unsure what typical effective tax rate is for those on minimum wage, so 15% may be wrong.

[Yellow95]

13 minutes ago, ErikS said:

I have to go in person next week to renew my driver's license, so I'll register to vote for a party as well Saggy Balls Gary.

Will you answer my question then?

Absolutely. I need three credible Witnesses though. :-)

 

Oh and you better watch the ball reference. Fudgie will brand you a tough guy.

4 minutes ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

Butt in? I didn't realize this was your private discussion. "I'll explain to anybody but you.". He asked a question, you refused to answer. My fixation is with the trolling. I've also said to Kevin that he needs to try a little harder instead of just parroting Gawker headlines about Bernie - So don't think you're special. You're pumping bullshit in here, and then trying to play the victim.

So... let's go somewhere interesting with the discussion:

Source

Minimum wage was worth more between 1970 to 1980 than it is today. Yet the cost of college has quadrupled. Since you said 1984, $2918 (2015 dollars) for college in 1985 on what, $6.50/hr (2014 dollars, eyeballing chart) is far more feasible. I don't think I'd support Kevin's original point that someone could work minimum wage job AND pay for college completely but it's far more possible back then than it is now. Paying for half of it, and a loan for the other half seems possible. Car insurance? Live in the city, go to school in the city, no car. Bicycle and public transportation.

$6.50/hr 40hrs, call it 85% takehome after taxes*, is $920/mo. $243/mo for yearly college ($2918/12). Leaves $677 for rent, electricity, food, and clothing.

*I'm unsure what typical effective tax rate is for those on minimum wage, so 15% may be wrong.

Who am I playing the victim too? Never claimed to be a victim. That's more for somebody your body type. :-) not mine.

[Yellow95]

I guess my question is if I had it so easy early on in life why am I not struggling now?   Hell I've made some of the worst Life Choices anybody could possibly make and I'm not having any problem getting by. LOL. ( did I were that forceful enough so as to keep my tough-guy image?)

[Burn-E]

I'm ignoring all the campaign shit but I think an important point needs to be made when people go declaring that these stupid kids want everything for free and should have to work for it. Has a nice solid ring to it and largely I agree with it but when you look at the baby boomers who were in college in the 1960s and those like my parents who were in college in the late 50's who now gripe about those darn kids who want everything for free.

Well guess what, if you lived in the State of California, as my parents did, tuition to the University of California Berkeley was absolutely free. There was a small fee for registration ($300) in 1968 but it wasn't until the mid 1970's that tuition started being charged.  And it wasn't until 2004 when tuition jumped significantly.  So here's one clear example where teenagers and 20 somethings are getting very bad rap because they're asking for what their parents and grandparents had access to only it's no longer available because costs have exploded and State funding from taxes is shattered.

http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-1868/

Further, back then you didn't need a college education in order to get a good solid blue collar job at many manufacturing jobs across the country. Whether you're talking about oil rigs down in Texas, auto manufacturing in Detroit, Furniture manufacturing in North Carolina, millwork in the Northeast, and aerospace in California. There was a solid opportunity for kids to decide I'm not going to college, I'm going straight into working with my hands and going to make a solid living for myself.

Now, since the 1980s that just simply has not been the case as the global economy has exploded and specialization has driven manufacturing and assembly jobs to the lowest cost countries with cheap and often unregulated labor.  (However some of those jobs are moving back to the US as costs increase in Asia with quality issues). 

Pensions have largely disappeared, retirement is pushed off and in jeopardy, the financialization of our economy has devastated companies and destroyed so many livelihoods. http://time.com/4327419/american-capitalisms-great-crisis/

CEOs have take advantage of the opportunities before them as result of certain law changes that pushed stock options as a driver for pay: http://www.npr.org/2016/02/18/467253394/why-did-americas-ceos-get-such-a-big-raise And when you give them that incentive well it's not much of a leap to see them start dancing to the tune of Wall Street in order to keep the stock price up which often gets translated (poorly if I might add) into all kinds of cuts across the board that impact the hourly worker on the line.

That doesn't mean you can't still pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make something of yourself with hard work and focus. But the environment has become significantly harder without incurring significant debt in college, diminished job opportunities unless you specialize, and many of our public schools in secondary education don't do a very good job of preparing kids to understand and succeed if they don't have good role models around them.

So here's my point, many of us have reaped the advantages of our parents and possibly went to school with much less debt only because they had the benefits that they seem to have forgotten about when they look down their noses at younger generations who are struggling today. And in some part, this generation is struggling because their parents and grandparent made some really bad decisions and allowed politicians to do so also when it came to funding teachers and other civil servant pensions and not being really careful with how those funds were structured.

It's a more complex analysis than most acknowledge.

But the other side of that coin is that those earlier generations didn't feel the need to have all the latest gadgets and toys and TVs and cars and computers and $5 coffees and going out to eat all the time as part of their daily lives.  They STRUGGLED and barely scraped by in small closet like rooms in the local YMCA or shared a bedroom with 3 others in a boarding house and worked 2 or 3 jobs to get through college.  They had very little to eat, maybe one or two sets of clothes, no car, no TV, nothing but their books which they had a challenge buying. So don't go thinking just because school was free for them they were able to live it up.  They were very much of a save for a rainy day mindset and socked away money constantly because their kids were going to need it some day. They deprived themselves for their kids benefit.

And it's possible for enterprising kids to find skills that are in large demand and do not require a college education.  Plus there are extensive opportunities for kids to self educate in software and other key skills with the wide breadth of online education resources.