97 850R keeps jumping time, I need some pro volvo advice

[st0mpy]

   Hello volvo speed!

I've been banging my head against the wall on this one.

First of all I'm an aspiring auto tech., I work in a full service shop with a few very knowledgeable master techs who had lent me some advice, but are just as stumped as I am.

I have been riding a motorcycle every day, rain or shine, for almost three years now. I need  a car.. But I didn't want to just buy a car that ran, I wanted something I really wanted, that needed some work, so from day one, I would have already had my hands all up inside her.. He he

A good friend of mine, ( who is, or was, a member here.. I remember him talking about it a lot) had a 97 850R, at about 100k miles, he did a lot of top end work, new water pump, timing belt, pulley, tensioner, 5 angle valve job, p&p matching the intake through to the turbo, poly intake spacer, custom intake piping, 20G turbo, 3 inch exhaust straight back to a magnaflow, NA cams, it was a beautiful thing. 

PO drove the car for about 10k miles after the modifications, purchased a new car, and the Volvo was left to sit for about 4-5 years. 

PO would drive the car around the block every few months to blow out the cobwebs, but I don't think he even let it fully warm up, he said it had too much power to really put it through its paces, and all he would do is drive it around the block a few times, and park it for a few more months.

One day PO went to start the 850 for a routine spin around the block, but she just would not start.

The car sat for another year at least in this condition, with continuous attempts to bring the 850 back to life..

So here's where I come in, I purchased the car from on him not too long ago, turns out it was out of time, zero compression on 1, 2, 4, & 5.    no. 3 had about 140psi.

Every intake valve was bent to hell on every cylinder with no compression, and the number two valve head on cylinder one actually broke off.. 

When PO had his P&Pdone, he also had a head from a t-5 he had gotten from a mutual friend, and had that p&p'd as well.

So I got a new t belt and tensioner, made a cam locking tool from scrap aluminum, and swapped the fresh head onto the block, with the previous cams and can cover.

I go to start the 850 for the first time onMonday and she started right up, but sounded a little funny..

Shut it off,restarted, without a hitch just like before, then died.

At this point turning the engine over sounded just like I had the plugs out.. No resistance from compression. Compression at this point read 20- 23 psi on all 5.

I check the timing.. Its out.. WAY out..

Pull the intake and starter, lock the crank in its safe position, set the time on the cams, put the t belt and tensioner back on, turned the key, and she sounded beautiful!!

I shut it off, put the serpentine back on, fill it with coolant, started it again, and she sat and purred for a few minutes.

Now I gave it a few revs, sounded good, gave it a little more..  MAYBE 3krpm..  the engine shuts off..

Check the timing, crank is set, exhaust cam is set, intake cam is off by 6 TEETH.

The only things that matter that are unchanged, are the cams, and the can cover.

I have no idea what would cause this to happen, especially in the first place before I purchased thecar, when PO religiously maintained it and used synthetic amsoil.

My original question was what the hell is happening.. And what could I do to mend it??

PO claims that he installed NA cams.. But now he says he can't remember switching them.

I also read somewhere that the OE cams are all slotted.. But mine are NOT..  What's going on here..

Now I'm thinking of just going to the junk yard and pulling an entire motor with good compression, and dropping it in with all of the current mods. Will a NA motor work fine with no changes? And what other models of what year use the same motor that could be dropped in and work well with said mods?  Should I just get a NA 850 motor and advance the exhaust and retard the intake just a bit to work well with the turbo and be done with it?  

I have such a headache with this thing.. I've always loved these cars.. Especially the boss motor thaley come with, and am tired of riding my bike in the rain.. Rainy season just started in Florida, and it takes too long to dry my boots for work the next day.. xD

Thank you for reading and any advice given.

 

[troyhyde]

If you haven't bent any valves, go through the belt and tensioner again and make sure you have the right parts.  The hydraulic tensioner engine (up to '97-98) uses a different belt than the mechanical tensioner engine 98-99 on.

Obviously, spin the tensioner and idler pulley as well as the water pump, make sure nothing binds.  Only other outlier is the tension on the cams inside the head.  The journals are part of the casting so any warped head that got shaved will not have linearity through the journals.  Similarly, if the block was ever machined you might have problems.  The head caps were matched to the heads (cut after casting) so swapping head caps could be problematic.  I sort of doubt this being the issue, should scream like a banshee if creating that much friction to slip the belt. 

I've seen hydraulic tensioners fail and not throw a belt (the plastic keeper prevents deflection that will jump teeth), the mechanical tensioners like to seize bearings, freeze/burn up and toss the belt.  If you've got the hydraulic tensioner, make sure compression is difficult and slow.  If it squishes right down into place in a minute or so, it is likely failed.

[st0mpy]

The belt was ordered by vin through the shop, and the gates hydraulic tensioner is new. I used a vise to compress the tensioner,which had good resistance, about an eighth, to a quarter turn at a time, in two to three minute intervals. 

I think the longer belt has a different width, wouldn't match up to the belt gears,  and would look a little out of place.

The water pump turns free, pulleys are free, however when moving the cams back in to time, the intake cam had a LITTLE more resistance than the exhaust did.

I have an extra block with the bottom end, but the head is on the 850 right now, and I need to hone a cylinder.

At this point, using what once was a budget to rip out the heart of a forgotten volvo, sounds much more cost effective for the time being.  

Cylinder 1 could be weakened from the broken valve rattling around anyway, if I find a good donor, I can put a water pump, and timing belt on it, swap the new tensioner over and call it a day.

[TryingBe]

What is the engine part number? It should be on the timing belt cover.

[st0mpy]

B5234T5 is the engine number, does that mean im running motronic 4.4 or 4.3?   I read that only the 97 850R has 4.4, or does that only apply to euro 850s with a manual gearbox? 

Am i only able to swap in another b5234t5, or will other similar engines work fine with the ecu equipped?

Can I take the ecu from an updated motor with vvt and make it work, or would I need the entire harness, that is if the 850 will even accept that harness without major rewiring..

 

 

Okay, after a little more poking around, it looks like I can use a B5234T, B5234T3, or another B5234T5 with no modifications or harness/ ecu change.. Maybe a cam gear change on a cvvt engine..  Sound about right?

Edit

[TryingBe]

97 850R auto would have a M4.3 ECU.

Yes, another B5234T5.

You can use an updated motor with VVT, but it will take some additional work.

[st0mpy]

97 850R auto would have a M4.3 ECU.

Yes, another B5234T5.

You can use an updated motor with VVT, but it will take some additional work.

Is all that's required is a block off plate? I tried to learn more about it following the multiple lunks in this thread -http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/137263-late-t5r-head-swap-and-vvt-delete/

But every link redirects me to the exact same page listed above..

[Rsterns]

If I read this all correctly, you used the cams and cam cover from one head and put it on the other?  If so, that's a big part of your problem.  The head and cam cover are matched sets.  I venture to guess that in this condition, there is enough cam race interference, that after things expand a bit, the cams are seizing a bit causing the belt to jump.

[st0mpy]

If I read this all correctly, you used the cams and cam cover from one head and put it on the other?  If so, that's a big part of your problem.  The head and cam cover are matched sets.  I venture to guess that in this condition, there is enough cam race interference, that after things expand a bit, the cams are seizing a bit causing the belt to jump.

I thought the same thing, but the cover and cams were mated with their original head initially with the same result. And they had a little over 12k miles on them before the intake cam jumped and bent all of the valves. 

Unless there was a burr or something on one of the cam cover journals that was just small enough to not create a problem until 10k miles later..

 

I'm going to get another motor tocswap in probably by the end of the month, I'll keep the block for a future high output build.. But who knows when that will be.

Any tips on the swap? Other than replacing water pump, pulleys, belt and tensioner.

Thank you everyone for your help so far!

[st0mpy]

Out with ze old.. 

 

IN WITH ZE NEW! 

got an 01 V60 B5234T3 just the other day from  LKQ. 

I need to get the front (left)  lower mount for the T3 still,  the original 850 mount holes do not match the new block. 

Everything else went smoothly.  I used a rotary tool with a barrel end diamond bit,  and slowly bored out the cams until the distributer and cam sensor fit in very snug.  I didn't use anything special,  came in a pack of bits from harbor freight. 

I'm waiting on finding a solution to replacing the banjo coolant fittings for the turbo,  mine are shot to say the least.  Otherwise I would have started it already. 

I am quite disappointed at this crappy cartridge oil filter though..  Especially when the 850 came with  a box full of good spin on filters!   (and I don't like having to need a tool just to remove the oil filter)