Lightened Crank Pulley

[S70-R]

Kit Vexed, dude, are you serious or are you mental?

You just reverse everything I say and you simply don't know how to interpret statements. Have you been in school, really?

I said "Even a lightened flywheel (the reduction on weight) represent a small percentage over the total inertia mass."

You said "not sure what your logic is in saying a lightened flywheel doesn't effect the overall rotational inertia as much as a crank pulley??"

WTF??? DO YOU REALLY THINK ONE STATEMENT IS THE SAME AS THE OTHER?!!! REALLY???!!!

NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AND I HAVE NEVER SAID WHAT YOU SAID!

I've never said a flywheel doesn't effect the overall rotational inertia as much as a crank pulley. What I SAID IS THAT "Even a lightened flywheel (the reduction on weight) will represent a small percentage over the total inertia mass.".

Can you see the difference? Man, you are driving me crazy. So dumb...

EVERYONE CAN NOW SEE HOW THAT YOU ARE COMPARING TOTALLY DIFFERENT STATEMENTS IDIOT!

And by the way, did you calculate the total rotational mass? Among crankshaft, pistons, rods, pulleys, flywheel, clutch, plate, gear box, diff., axles, hubs, rotors, wheels, tires you are likely talking about more than 100kg.

If you get our lets say 8kg from a flywheel we are talking about 8% reduction. 8% already sounds something cool but do you consider it a BIG percentage? No, I don't think it's a big percentage although you will certainly gain some WHP. And crank pulley weight reduction percentage would be somewhere around 2-3%, so the very small percentage.

So I said "Even a lightened flywheel will represent a small percentage (yeah, 8% can be cool but it is not BIG, it is small) over the total inertia mass.".

Where is the contradiction on my statements uhhmm smart guy?

And I even said "The flywheel (lightened one over a crank pulley) may have a bit more of advantage (over using just a lightened pulle) cause it weights much more."

So, I didn't contradict myself! You are the one being an asshole and you don't know how to read and interpret statements. It's what I can conclude and that's not my fault.

It's funny to see someone that can't just read and interpret statements and that mess up and compares things like water and oil (totally the opposite).

[Kit Vexed]

im not 'reversing' what you say, IM QUOTING YOU.

 

but ok bro.  

" i DIDNT just say what i JUST said..."    do i have your mantra correct??

 

i will concede and accept the fact that after 9 years and heavy boost, my engine is going to blow up from my lightened pulley out of nowhere..

 

does this make you happy inside?  ok?  good?

you win bro..  all your evidence has convinced me and everyone here..  thanks for the contribution sir

[S70-R]

23 minutes ago, NEU said:

s70R, most mods are "marginal" gains, (i.e. NA cams, turbo intake pipe, open filter, spark plug cables, intercooler, RIP, etc. etc. etc... see what I'm doing?). But when you put several of them together you get a "substantial" gain. You could replace lighten crank pulley with anything in your list of mods and say "alone it's not worth it".

Your opinion whether the lighten pulley is worth it or is going to destroy your engine, especially without proof and backpedaling, isn't helping you convince anyone... Find some proof, stand your ground and you might have valid debate, but without it you're just spouting your opinion, parroting internet myths and swaying in the breeze.

NEU, of course that a lot of small things put together will represent a bigger thing. I totally agree with that.

However, on my list of priorities to get more power the pulley doesn't appear on the top. I rather explore other mods than that one. And why is that bad? It's just my preference.

One thing to notice. I haven't been trying to convince anyone that using a Iight pulley will destroy the engine. It is also not my intention to keep potential myths alive. I just said it could/may have bad consequences on the LONG run. I didn't say it will for sure. Those are very different things, don't you think?

It's funny that most of you believed in the past RN heads flow much more than N (and with no evidence to support that). It was proved this belief was wrong.
It's also funny that most of you believed in the past that our rods would be killed with high boost at low rpms or that rods will give up at 300hp. That also has been proved wrong.

The fact I don't have a particular example for you about a bearing/crankshaft failure to bullet prove the remote/long run possibility of a failure doesn't restrict me of having my own opinion and preference. I have however example of light pulleys failures and that's because alumin is much less forgiving than steel when it comes to vibrations and twists.

On the other hand. you guys also don't have a bullet prove evidence to ensure that using a lighter pulley/flywheel/whatever will not generate additional bearing wear. And I'm fine with it.

21 minutes ago, Kit Vexed said:

im not 'reversing' what you say, IM QUOTING YOU.

 

but ok bro.  

" i DIDNT just say what i JUST said..."    do i have your mantra correct??

 

i will concede and accept the fact that after 9 years and heavy boost, my engine is going to blow up from my lightened pulley out of nowhere..

 

does this make you happy inside?  ok?  good?

you win bro..  all your evidence has convinced me and everyone here..  thanks for the contribution sir

Yes you were reversing me!

Explain us how the statement "Even a lightened flywheel (the reduction on weight) represent a small percentage over the total inertia mass." is the same as "not sure what your logic is in saying a lightened flywheel doesn't effect the overall rotational inertia as much as a crank pulley??"

You were accusing me that I said a flywheel wouldn't represent more rotational weight than a crank pulley.

I never said such thing! Actually I always said the opposite when I pointed out that the use of a light flywheel would achieve bigger gains than the use of a light pulley because the flywheel weights more. So, if you reduce weight from a flywheel you will certainly reduce more weight than from a pulley.

As everyone can see those 2 statements have nothing to do with each other and you have been such an asshole comparing completely different statements.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone. I've just been giving my opinion, my priorities and my preferences. If you can't live with other people's preferences that's your problem, sorry.

[Kit Vexed]

*yawn

im going to go to sleep now...

 

but before i go, i wanted to tell you that your opinion wins over ANY evidence dougy has provided or experiences i've had (that you haven't) with lightened crank pulleys..

 

and since you're the one who started this thread (or wait, did you??  NO), your opinion, priorities and preferences supersede us all on the matter.   you win man, you win..  you are now complete in life.

[S70-R]

You were the one trying to win something man. You even distorted my statements, you accused me of saying things that I didn't say and compared totally different things.

That's not my fault.

Once again I was the first on the thread saying a lighter crank pulley could help to rev easier and could achieve smaller gains. The dyno graph dougy posted just proves the point. It helped a bit, marginal gains.

So, no contradiction once again.

My preferences and opinions really don't matter to others. You are absolutely right. So let's close the forum because people's opinions/preferences don't matter :)

[Commander Riker]

[Johann]

I think the Volvo 5 cylinder crank is simply to heavy to get bothered with a different pulley. Also the crank bearings in this engine hardly wear. But there are some engine's out there, I believe BMW 6 cylinders are among them, which do not like the removal of the pretty heavy harmonic balancer. It acts as a sort of counter balance for the flywheel. When done wrong the crank can break in half. And yes engine's with lightened un-dampened pulleys have shown higher wear. It will bring the life expectancy of the engine down to 250K Miles from 300K miles.. .. 

Even when polished it can hardly be seen btw. 

[dougy]

7 hours ago, Kit Vexed said:

...

Kix im always perplexed how you can get so many -1...i guess the wolfpack is still aliveand strong...lol

28 minutes ago, Johann said:

I think the Volvo 5 cylinder crank is simply to heavy to get bothered with a different pulley. Also the crank bearings in this engine hardly wear. But there are some engine's out there, I believe BMW 6 cylinders are among them, which do not like the removal of the pretty heavy harmonic balancer. It acts as a sort of counter balance for the flywheel. When done wrong the crank can break in half. And yes engine's with lightened un-dampened pulleys have shown higher wear. It will bring the life expectancy of the engine down to 250K Miles from 300K miles.. .. 

Even when polished it can hardly be seen btw. 

interesting Johann...i was trying to ask my high hp supra friend if they use them on their 6 cylinders...they dont use them either. 

[dougy]

Much of the science behind dampers is based on theories in books, applied in a vacuum, not actual real world facts. Most people buy a damper because they heard they needed one or out of a fear of the unknown. The problem is people don't know why they do or don't need a damper. There is no mystery here, just cold hard facts based on real world use and need. So lets get started.

First what is a damper? The most basic definition comes from Websters, which says; a damper is a dulling or deadening influence. Now that's pretty simplistic but its a great start. A damper is designed to absorb motion and frequency (harmonics) created by the crankshaft and the rotating assembly (rods, cams, etc). The most important aspect/element of a damper is how it's mounted to the crankshaft. A damper must be interference fit to the crankshaft snout. This means the damper must be heated up to be pressed onto the crankshaft snout, making a fit so tight its like the parts were made from one piece of metal. Without being interference fit a damper cannot function according to the most basic law of physics, "every action must have an equal and opposite reaction." Without interference fit a damper moves on the crankshaft snout and loses all of its ability to counteract crankshaft torsional movement.

The purpose of a damper is to protect the crankshaft from cracking due to excessive torsional movement and harmonic frequencies. A damper has no effect on bearing wear, it is the engines balance and build tolerances that control bearing wear. Dampers are not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design but more importantly the quality of the materials and machining tolerances. Factors such as shorter stroke lengths, short piston TDC dwell time, no piston pin off-sets, forged crankshafts and engines that are balanced to blue printing specs or better (Honda engines are 0 gram balanced). Another important factor is the actual tune of the engine, especially when modified. Poor tuning leads to detonation which is an engine killer and no damper can stop this damage.

Now that these important facts are out in the open you need to figure out if your engine does or doesn't need a damper. If your factory crank pulley is not interference fit onto the crankshaft you do not need a damper. A great example of this is the 4G63 engine (1990+ Eclipse, Evo, Laser & Taon) which has its crank pulley mounted to the engine with four small M8 bolts. The 420A SOHC/DOHC crank pulley (Chrysler Neon, etc.) is interference fit but not because it needs a damper but because there is no key or dowel pin to hold the pulley from spinning on the crankshaft. Still confused? If you unbolt your crank pulley and it slides off the crankshaft you do not need a damper. There are a few engines where the crank pulley is sometimes slightly tight (VG30DE & DETT) but these engine also do not need a damper.

Now lets cover some damper terminology mis-understandings. The term "Harmonic Balancer" is often used but is incorrect. This type of device does not exist but was created by putting two terms together. The words are harmonic damper and engine balancer. A harmonic damper is just a fancy name for a damper. The term engine balancer is for engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into or bolted to the crank pulley or damper. The proper way to describe the incorrect term above is Harmonic Damper or Damper with or without external balance weight.


Now many people will still have lingering confusion even after all the facts above. This is ok as we are changing people's understanding through real facts not urban myths and legends that have persisted for too long. As discussed above many of the pulleys on import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley making them look similar to a damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, suppressing noise from the engine accessories; the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This noise is what car manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) which they want to keep out of the passenger compartment. Its the same reason OEM's use of dual mass flywheels to quiet transmission noise and freewheeling alternator pulleys to quiet even more alternator noise.

Many earlier generation crank pulleys on domestic & import engines have no rubber at all. We have samples of many of these from Acura/Honda B & D Series engines, 2.4L Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, 2.2L Chrysler's, and 1.8L VW's just to mention a few. Some people will now worry that because we remove the NVH damper they will start to hear more engine accessory noise. The type and amount of NVH is unique to every car. As an example NVH will increase with aftermarket intakes or exhausts. OEM intake and exhaust systems use baffles and resonators to quiet intake and exhaust noise. Aftermarket systems eliminate these baffles and resonators to increase HP but they also increase noise from the throttle opening and from the additional size of the freer flowing exhaust. To most people the increase of in NVH makes for a sportier driving experience not to mention more HP.

[Kit Vexed]

8 hours ago, dougy said:

Kix im always perplexed how you can get so many -1...i guess the wolfpack is still aliveand strong...lol

interesting Johann...i was trying to ask my high hp supra friend if they use them on their 6 cylinders...they dont use them either. 

Dougy you already know im the -1 master..    win or lose, i know the gang is always trolling like it means anything to me  =)

 

real talk now though...  we join forums to gain knowledge and find out about things we have no experience with, through people who do, correct?

i mean, i joined volvospeed so i could learn from people who have done stuff i haven't.  the prices, the installs and the results..  yah?

 

here we have a dude who literally REFUSES to accept something from 1. a person backing up statements by providing evidence.  and 2.  someone with experience on the said component..

 

since these things apparently aren't enough and your opinion on the matter is written in stone, why bother?  all your  " i think..."  and  " i wouldn't..."  BULL$hi7  doesn't fly unless you can say " i have.."

 

I, Kit Vexed, have (you see how YOU can't say that) experience with a lightened crank pulley for over 9 years with NO adverse effects.  you're speaking on something YOU have no experience with and trying to argue with people who do.

just shut the F up dude.

and dont forget to -1 me...  HURTS SO GOOD lol

[S70-R]

And he keeps crying like a kid

15 hours ago, Johann said:

I think the Volvo 5 cylinder crank is simply to heavy to get bothered with a different pulley (...)

But there are some engine's out there, I believe BMW 6 cylinders are among them, which do not like the removal of the pretty heavy harmonic balancer

It acts as a sort of counter balance for the flywheel. When done wrong the crank can break in half.

And yes engine's with lightened un-dampened pulleys have shown higher wear. It will bring the life expectancy of the engine down to 250K Miles from 300K miles.. .. 

And what do you have to say about this Kit Vexed ultra arrogant crying kid? Is Johann a guy with no knowledge, no experience?

right?

If you really want to know, when opinions and experiences are exposed on such an arrogant and disrespectful approach like yours, I simply don't care about your experience.

People that cry, shout, manipulate other peoples' statements and thoughts and disrespect other people simply because of their opinion don't deserve any credit.

I don't care if your car still runs with a lightened crank pulley. If that makes you happier, you can even remove the pulley and put the pulley wherever you want (use your imagination).

Learn to live with other people's opinion even if you disagree. That's what distinguish a civilized person from a raw animal.

[dougy]

Oh dear ... you really reaching s70.

Any luck finding anything but hearsay like you are doin?

[Avinitlarge]

I used a under drive crank pulley about 10 years ago on a Mondeo/Contour. I read about the risks but fitted it anyway. I did about 50,000 miles with no issues then sold the car. I owned a lot of 80's cars and the crank pulley was always a pressed steel thing that weighed next to nothing. Again, no issues. I'm not saying they do or do not cause problems, just sharing my experience.

[Commander Riker]

In looking at the mod list on S70-R's car... which is extensive... I would think a lightened pulley would be more noticeable then a stock car.  

Then again... WTF do I know.  I'm just some a$$h0l3 on VS.

[turbobrick]

18 hours ago, Johann said:

I think the Volvo 5 cylinder crank is simply to heavy to get bothered with a different pulley. Also the crank bearings in this engine hardly wear. But there are some engine's out there, I believe BMW 6 cylinders are among them, which do not like the removal of the pretty heavy harmonic balancer. It acts as a sort of counter balance for the flywheel. When done wrong the crank can break in half. And yes engine's with lightened un-dampened pulleys have shown higher wear. It will bring the life expectancy of the engine down to 250K Miles from 300K miles.. .. 

Even when polished it can hardly be seen btw. 

My last volvo 5 cylinder suffered from thrust bearing failure... it happens on these motors too.