Yellow95 Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 5/28/2016 at 0:23 AM, mattsk8 said: Good rebuttal. So... have you personally tested these things? Or are you taking them by faith as truth? Its all he's got. Cut him some slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 5/9/2016 at 2:19 PM, Burn-E said: I was born into the covenant as we say. My family have been members for generations. But I grew up outside of the Western US Mormon enclaves because my parents wanted us to develop independent of our faith. They wanted us to learn to be critically minded and to reason with our hearts and our minds. I had doubts I had to resolve as a teenager into my early 20's. I flirted with and studied deeply a number of other religions (Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, mainstream Christianity, and even atheism through western modern philosophies). I only went to serve a mission for the Church once I had answered the question for myself: what is truth and where can it be found. I had my own moment of conversion that clarified what I believe and that has evolved over the years. I'm a fairly open minded member of my faith because I believe that elements of truth can be found in many places. I believe the message for my Church has the main truths and power and authority necessary to better understand our responsibilities in this life and the life to come and how to achieve them. And yes, I do believe that if I were born to another faith I would have continued to search until I found the answers the LDS Church offers. I was a seeker as a teenager with many questions. I still pursue answers to questions that surface. But I feel comfortable that this framework offers the most complete answers to those questions. That does not mean I always agree with the direction the leaders of my faith take but since I do not believe in infallibility and nor do we teach it, their mistakes do not shake my faith. Actually, I already answered that question Lucas. I guarantee you that I've explored other faiths more deeply than most people you have ever met. As a missionary I regularly said to those I met, I'll read your book if you'll read mine. If you looked at my bookshelves in the rather large section dedicated to religion you would find two copies of the Q'uran (one in English and one in French), a copy of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning," a Roman Catholic missal, two copies of the Jehovah's Witness Bible, Bible Commentaries, three different translations of the Bible (King James, Louis Second, NRSV), the Bhagavad Gita and a wide variety of pamphlets. I picked a new one up on Saturday from a young Chinese woman who follows Falun Gong who was standing outside the grocery store. I actually invite people in if they happen to knock on my door rather than telling them to get lost. In fact, I have often found myself opening my mouth to tell an adherent of another faith, "That's not what your Church teaches" when they explain their own beliefs but I generally hold back from being so direct because I want to understand why they believe what they believe. Some day I hope to be able to find time to learn sufficient Greek and Hebrew to read the Bible in the earliest available translations from which all others have been generated. I'd like to learn Arabic sufficiently to read the Q'uran in it's original language as well. I've tested the waters of religious faith and found the solid answer quite similar to Erik's certainty that electrons exist. I remain open to God steering me in another direction but I don't spend every day asking if electrons exist. Instead I count on finding answers to questions as the need arises to ask them and I regularly find reaffirmation of what I know in my service and support of others. As for the question "Do you consider the possibility that we are nothing more than a mere accident in the cosmos? A random chance of events that has eventually led to this position, without any influence form some grand creator?" Yes, I long considered that possibility. I have found irrefutable evidence that the answer to that question is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow95 Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 5/28/2016 at 1:55 PM, mattsk8 said: Definitely mutual... and the beauty of it is being able to discuss these things w/out going all terrorist on each other. And I look forward to some day being able to tip a few w/ you and actually discussing things like this (and whatever else we feel like talking about) in person. That said... technically you've never seen the wind; you've only seen the effects of the wind and assumed it was the wind that made things move. Now we can obviously Google what makes wind, but if you believe what you read you're taking that in faith, because you still weren't the one that tested it. Kevin and Erik don't understand what you are saying. Let me break it down for them. Matt isn't doubting the wind exists. That would align more with you two. He is saying you"know" it exists not because YOU scientifically proved it but you have FAITH that someone did. Why is that so hard to understand? On 5/28/2016 at 7:27 PM, ErikS said: Sure I do. You believe there is a god with no physical evidence. You believe your religion will give you life after death with no physical evidence. That is how faith works, confidence and trust without evidence, in this case anything that can be proven using how we now form our understanding of the physical world. You believe an invisible dragon lives in your garage. I can't prove it doesn't, but it sets the bar to how a person like me sees a person with your beliefs. I respect your right to believe it, just respect my right to let you know how silly it seems to me. So what you are saying is "I don't believe it so I will compare it to some ignorant scenario to justify my disbelief. I find your closed mindedness refreshing as it makes me relize that my mind isn't as closed as it could be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge_Brownie Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Yellow95 said: Matt isn't doubting the wind exists. That would align more with you two. He is saying you"know" it exists not because YOU scientifically proved it but you have FAITH that someone did. Why is that so hard to understand. They have faith someone proved the existence of wind, but if they wanted, they could reproduce whatever experiments were performed. Is the same be true about evidence supporting the existence of a god? A lot of the evidence seems to be moments when god told someone something. I can't call him up and say "Hey, did you talk to Bob yesterday and give him clarification on verse 3:16?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Not believing in something because there is no evidence for it, how is that being close minded? An invisible floating corporeal dragon in my garage is no more silly than believing in God. There is equal evidence for both, and you can't disprove either of them because of the context and direction one takes to exclaim how faith operates If a God exists, why not reveal itself so we can all find purpose and get the most basic questions answered. If heaven is real, Why is there no evidence for it? If we have an eternal soul, why is it not evident when we are alive? All the questions are rebutted through human thought by people, not God or a prophet in modern times giving us the answers. My contention is that religion grew when common physical things that we now know as truths were not understood and were used by those in power of the religion to control. Why does a church leader who prays and gets answers from God to tell his congregation a lauded figure, but a schizophrenic who does the same is labeled crazy and given drugs and sent to a mental institution? We are a very young species, not being on this Earth for very long but have convinced ourselves we are the most important thing in the entire universe. We are not even a spec of dust in the game and scheme of the vastness of space. With the age and size of the universe I cannot fathom a God, if there is one, having personal relationships with use and wanting to save us into eternity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Fudge_Brownie said: . I can't call him up and say "Hey, did you talk to Bob yesterday and give him clarification on verse 3:16?". Um, actually you can. But it's like learning to talk and read, you have to make a concentrated effort and believe that the exercise is meaningful. This is not a hypothetical at all. I'm speaking from VERY direct experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge_Brownie Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, Burn-E said: Um, actually you can. But it's like learning to talk and read, you have to make a concentrated effort and believe that the exercise is meaningful. This is not a hypothetical at all. I'm speaking from VERY direct experience. Assuming that's the case, I don't think that counts as evidence from a scientific method perspective. It seems akin to proving that the wind blows when I think hard about it by going outside, thinking hard, and the wind blows. Then someone else tries to reproduce it and you tell them they didn't do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsk8 Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, ErikS said: Not believing in something because there is no evidence for it, how is that being close minded? An invisible floating corporeal dragon in my garage is no more silly than believing in God. There is equal evidence for both, and you can't disprove either of them because of the context and direction one takes to exclaim how faith operates There is evidence for God's existence, you just choose to ignore it because you choose to have faith in someone else's word over God's. The creation around you, the air you breathe, the fact that we're alive, etc... is the evidence. Beyond that, the additional evidence for me is how God has worked in my life, but I don't expect you to understand that, because w/out faith... Regardless... this is an endless discussion, I'm not sure there has ever been a point in history where someone was argued into believing anything. You guys can continue to believe we came from nothing, that's your right. "...if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve"... whether it's the weather man, a scientist, your invisible dragon in your garage, or God... "But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 There is equal if not more evidence that there is no god, IMO. I'm willing to consider both.. but the more I learn the less plausible the pearly gates sound. It's a scary thing to consider... but we may exist in this brief life with nothing to look forward to. A thought I rely on to remember not to take things too seriously, while taking them very seriously at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge_Brownie Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, mattsk8 said: There is evidence for God's existence, you just choose to ignore it because you choose to have faith in someone else's word over God's. The creation around you, the air you breathe, the fact that we're alive, etc... is the evidence. It would probably be easier for me to believe in a god, to believe in a religion. Why would I (or Erik) choose not to? I doubt he or I are the type who've shirked god to live a sinful lifestyle. Your phrasing still points to this 'us verse them' that implies atheism is a following, with believers. It's not that I chose to believe someoneelse's word. I just don't believe in the concept of god right now. I have not heard any good proposals to explain our existence beyond big bang. I don't know what is above/behind/around that starting point. But to assume that god is the likely answer seems so implausible that it is likely wrong. I've included that last sentence specifically to avoid any claim that I just defined agnosticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Atheism has evolved into a religion of sorts. Claiming definite lack of existence of things is as much a stretch as claiming existence. It is a very "us vs them" group... just like.... religion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsk8 Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Fudge_Brownie said: It would probably be easier for me to believe in a god, to believe in a religion. Why would I (or Erik) choose not to? I doubt he or I are the type who've shirked god to live a sinful lifestyle. Your phrasing still points to this 'us verse them' that implies atheism is a following, with believers. It's not that I chose to believe someoneelse's word. I just don't believe in the concept of god right now. I have not heard any good proposals to explain our existence beyond big bang. I don't know what is above/behind/around that starting point. But to assume that god is the likely answer seems so implausible that it is likely wrong. I've included that last sentence specifically to avoid any claim that I just defined agnosticism. Not a fan of labels? Either way... that pretty much is an agnostic stand you're taking. And don't think of it as "shirking God to live a sinful lifestyle", it's more like shirking God because of sin. Closely related but still very different. Edited May 31, 2016 by mattsk8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 OK, I'm not the moderator in this thread but I will say this: we're all sinners. Every single one of us. I would hope this thread can remain above personal accusations. 46 minutes ago, Fudge_Brownie said: Assuming that's the case, I don't think that counts as evidence from a scientific method perspective. It seems akin to proving that the wind blows when I think hard about it by going outside, thinking hard, and the wind blows. Then someone else tries to reproduce it and you tell them they didn't do it right. No Alden, that's not what I'm talking about. I specifically spoke of two other methods of communication because they are substantial and tangible but they also require effort and focus to develop the skill. It requires more than just meditating on a topic though that is an element of the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin. Posted May 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Burn-E said: Um, actually you can. But it's like learning to talk and read, you have to make a concentrated effort and believe that the exercise is meaningful. This is not a hypothetical at all. I'm speaking from VERY direct experience. what is your opinion on speaking in tongues Alain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Depends on how you define it Kevin. I've experienced what the charismatic Christians call speaking in tongues - attended small meetings where it was taking place - and I'm more than a skeptic of that particular manifestation. Babbling as a means of demonstrating you are filled with the Holy Spirit is not what I would consider a proper manifestation of the spiritual gift that Paul describes in Corinthians 12. We believe in the gifts of the spirit, it's one of stated Articles of Faith. But the gift of tongues has a practical application.. It should benefit those who receive it and those who hear it. Mormons are very practical about this in seeing it as the ability to communicate in a foreign language and connect with those who speak that language. It can also mean to be able to learn the language quickly and effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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