Tuned 850 Turbo (T,T5,R)

[hcaznacnud]

Hello, this is my first ever post. So allow me to introduce myself by first stating how much i appreciate literally every follower for Volvo's for this list would have never been created without it. This list has had the help from this site, google, YouTube, FCP Euro, IPD, and even SweedSpeed, and every person that added a post to aide in this post. So please allow me to thank everyone for this post. I would also like to note that I do not claim to be a Volvo specific mechanical engineer nor an author so not everything is perfect. I would also like to say that I only added comments where the provided links missed out on, because I would really like everyone to take the time to read the posts the have already been made and I would like to give credit to the people who made so please check them out.

I will not go into my passion for Volvo too much because this post just about covers that point, and quite honestly there are plenty of posts that will just about explain that. The first I would like to point out would be this guy Benjamin Hoff who is an author for relating Taoism and how it relates to current American culture. This is the link to what I found: http://benjaminhoffauthor.com/volvo.html. What I liked about this post is how Benjamin talks about the history of Volvo and well the pure awesomeness of the Volvo 850 and how it was revolutionary from it's compact transmission, to it's performance, to the special "crumble" zones that help draw shock away from the driver and into the car in an accident. He also goes into his tune and made a list on all the things he changed on his Volvo 850. I would like to take the time now to give him a special thanks for his post definitely contributed to the most inspiration for my tune. So please take the time to look into his post it is a truly heartening read.

For the rest of this read I will use different headings, and to start I will start with Engine Limits/ Modifications.

The Weak Links

These are the links I used for a majority of basing my engine mods:

I would like to thank the user EricF for this one. I'm sure that any person who has looked into modding their P80 Volvo has at least looked into this post because it is so well written and very informative and if you have not read it yet I recommend reading it. This post talks about engine limits, transmission limits, and turbo limits plus a little extra.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=10961 .

Connecting Rods

To start I have found from various sources that the weakest link in the engine is first the connecting rods in the Volvo 5 cylinder engine, which are rated to around 350 hp. Which does not seem that high but keep in mind the Volvo 850 was meant to be a sporty family car not a race car. With this in mind you have to ask yourself what you want to do with the car. I myself wanted a weekend warrior as it's called which is a daily driver with a little fun added in the middle. Therefore for me the rods are fine for me. The main reason these rods are a problem is because of the turbocharger. Looking into the link just posted Eric talks about the limits of the 15G turbo which comes stock on all 850's in the USA except for the R which received a 16T, which is at the max of 15 psi of boost, and with improper engine management (ECU Tune) you can easily bend a rod, which I have found to be caused by two things. The first is that at high boost pressures at low RPM's causes high torque which literally bends the rods and there goes the bottom end. The other thing cause is essential the same thing but is caused by a spike in boost pressure and causes a spike in fuel/air mixture and causes to much power and therefore blows a rod. With this in mind you can safely tune pretty much tune the 15G, 16T, 18T, 19T, or 22T, as long as you have supporting mods: a sports exhaust and reliable ECU Tune. The next link are the piston heads with can handle 400 hp when i uncovered this truth i did not look into upgrading them further for that is more than enough for this car but I did put into the spreadsheet H-Beam connecting rods and Weisco forged piston heads which both can handle at least 800 hp.

Automatic Transmission

For all american 850 High Pressure Turbo (HPT) cars came automatic which can only handle close to 300 hp which is probably the biggest limiting factor in this car. To my knowledge there are two things you can do to improve this. The first is adding an auxiliary transmission oil cooler and fresh oil change. Keep in mind if you you keep the automatic gearbox the fluid will have to be changed frequently. I have not modded my car yet but i would say you have to do a fluid flush every engine oil change or at the least every other engine oil change. The alternative is to do a complete manual swap. If you look into Erics link he will talk about possible manual swaps and what he did to his car. So go check it out if interested. And if your really interested in doing an actual manual swap check out these links:

this is by Matt B on volvospeed he posted what he calls the parts bible for a manual swap and everything you will need for it:
http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/78 ... nual-swap/

This is dooby who posted with complete pictures and descriptions on how to do an actual manual swap from an automatic:
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=71697

lastly this is the tricky part and that is converting the wiring harness from auto to manual because you have to change the cruise control wiring and something about the reverse light allows being on but thanks to Hank Scorpio on Turbobricks you can find pictures and descriptions and pretty much everything you need to know: 
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost. ... tcount=237

As a note I have opted to keep my car as an automatic. I would love to to rebuild my car as a manual but it does not seem worth the approximate cost of $1500. To me there are three slight benefits to a manual. The first is it is a lot more engaging in driving and more of a feeling of being one with your car which is very compelling but due to the front reel drive of the car drifting is not very practical and to me is not justified. The second is possible shaving a couple of hundredths (.01-.10) to tenths off of your time on the track. The last thing would be to add a blow off valve which sounds awesome but serves no real performance bonus, it would be pointless to add a blow off valve to an automatic because all of the pressure would be dumped as soon as you let off the gas which would create very little pressure and thus no whoosh sound.

Turbocharger
The stock turbocharger on 850 T's or T5's is the 15G which has it limit at around 15 PSI with this setting you can hit around 300 hp with proper tuning but keep in mind the turbo will be pushing it's limits and will be worn very quickly. And the same can be said about the 16T but can handle the higher boost pressures, compared to the 15G, normally but that is it's limit. With this is mind I would recommend at the least a 16T with a good ECU tune or bigger turbo like a 18T or 19T but keep in mind the bigger the turbo the harder it will be for the ECU to determine firing and fuel mixture which goes back to bending rods. so in order to keep things safe you would have to keep boost pressures low on the bigger turbos. The 16T would be recommended for those who do not want to do heavy modding. The bigger turbos, 18T or 19T, are for those who want to have a heavily modified 850.

Now on to the good stuff

The hopefully most in depth tune for a Volvo 850

The List and Stage Zero
below, or wherever attachments show up on this forum, is an excel spreadsheet which I have spent about a year putting together finding all the different things that can be done to this car with part numbers, what site to buy them, brand names, part cost, and even the reason for doing it. Some links are also added for some installations purposes. A lot of time was put into this so please don't be too judgmental but I would not mind a comment or thought that would add to the build and truly contribute to the idea behind this Volvo that will become a beast. The file has a lot of details so take your time looking at it and feel free to google some of the stuff to get more answers. The most important thing when considering this tune is making sure you are at a true and honest stage zero because this will insure engine health and longevity. I mean why work on an engine that cannot pass a leak down test which would make this not worth doing. Now would also be a good time to mention that I am doing all work myself I have done all stage zero requirements myself and have even rebuilt the head of my car with no help other than the forums found on this very post. In my opinion if you truly want to build your car you NEED to know how it works and the only way to do that is to build your car yourself. I myself have literally no experience building a car and through many hours of research and taking my time working my car I have been able to do this. So to me a lot of things on the list are self explanatory and the basic reasoning behind them is stated within the spreadsheet but I will point out a few details to consider.

Gauges

I have chosen to have a total of six gauges, which I have found to be a bit more than most, but it makes me feel like a NASCAR racer I suppose. To start I chose to go with IPD's pillar gauge and a single din gauge holder, my radio will be converted to a single gauge head unit. For a clean install and to avoid splicing radio wires I have looked into getting a CirKit Boss. It took me awhile to find these and boy was I excited. This hook up inside of your engine bay connect to your battery via circuit breaker, and plug into your fuse box ignition fuse. This is very nice because it allows for install for aftermarket circuits, in my case it will be for gauges, but plenty of people have set up fog lamps and heavy duty lights for jeeps and trucks with these. The price is expensive for these units but after installation you will have what look's like a complete factory installed unit. The Cirkit Boss I decided on was the bigger model for 3 constant 12 v wires and 4 ignition wires. I chose this one because of the constant 12 v wires all connections require a live wire so this will make for a better install because it will keep from having to splice any stock wires. Just as a note gauges require pretty much no current or really voltage for the matter so all of the gauges could be wired in series for the ignition wire (which will allow for the gauges to turn on when the car turns on) and in series for their respective live wires (the constant 12 v source). In this manner the gauges will take up one Ignition fuse leaving three left for some other circuit, and one constant 12 v fuse leaving 2 more for something. You can also note that since the gauges will barely go over 1 amp even with all of them in series there is still room to grow on that very circuit. There are some instructions in the spreadsheet and feel free to YouTube some installation videos. There is a guy who used it to install a air/fuel ratio gauge with a O2 pump that required an external circuit.

Tuning

To start with this section of the list I will note that I am not rebuilding the the connecting rods or piston heads because I feel very comfortable to doing this tune without changing out these, there are plenty of people who daily this kind of build with no problems. The reason they are added is to account for the cost for people who want to add them. The real reason most 850's blow rod's or piston head's is due to an accurate ECU tune combined with improper tuning which leads to restrictive flow and thus things blow. The next couple of things would be the R exhaust manifold which will allow better air flow into the turbo as opposed to the manifold on stock 850 turbos. For the exhaust I have gone with the OBX 3" down-pipe and 2.5" cat-back full exhaust, it is stainless steel so it will resist rust and the overall quality is alright. This is exhaust is not the best on the market, especially when compared to Yother's exhaust, the company IPD uses to make their exhausts, or BSR's but for the price this exhaust is the way to go. The tune I decided to go with is the ARD tune it will save me me about $200 when compared to IPD's. I would also like to note that ARD is about just as reputable if not more than IPD when it comes to tuning, just check any forum. Also note that the Walbro is a fuel pump good for 400 hp this is needed because the Volvo fuel pump gives out quickly around 300 hp. The injectors I chose are green Volvo injectors which are good for up to 440 cc/min, blue injectors are also rated for about the same. If you are worried about possible hp loses due to fuel starve you can go with green injectors good for 440 cc/min. If bigger injectors are installed then a new upgraded Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF) will need to be installed. The main component will be the MAF from a Volvo S60 or 960, along with an additional filter to fit the new 3" MAF. I would like to note that because the stock inlet hose is less than 3" you should also upgrade that hose. The turbo inlet hose is the best one to install because it is already 3" and is the same as viva-performances and way cheaper than them and IPD. The transmission cooler is made by Mocal a specialized performance oil cooler manufacturer's. Because the kit is made from me all the individual parts are listed to find online. The specific site I used to find all the parts was this: http://www.batinc.net/mocal.htm. The install link is below in the additional information section.

Suspension

The strut kit is from FCP Euro, and is a KONI suspension kit. KONI is well known for it's performance so I thought it best to go with the sport style. FCP includes all new bolts and hardware for both front and rear installation, you can also find the installation video on the website where the kit is found. The springs are for lower ride height and better drive-ability. The mounts, transmission and engine, are also for drive-ability and handling. The engine mounts are OEM rated but not technically OE, they have good reviews so I decided on these. The Polyurethane Torque Kit from IPD gives a slightly bigger under Transmission mount which will create less shaking and smoother shifts. It also contains a firewall mount for shaking, and a upper engine stabilizer (NOTE: this is added stabilization you will still need the upper engine mount).

Turbo

The turbo I chose was the 19T because the 18T is a pain to find and ARD Tuning has the whole set up for the same price as a 16T so it will allow for future mods if need be. Specifically for me I will get the 19T. The set I'm getting will include an already set waste-gate actuator, and compressor bypass valve (CBV) with a 10 lb spring which will handle the rapid change in pressures. ARD sells these two components individual for those who already have a bigger turbo or do not want to upgrade. The stick turbo control valve (TCV) tends to fail quickly so I am getting the ARD TCV to handle a bigger load and it will last longer. I also opted for the angled flange which will promote the exiting of exhaust from the turbo and keep from spiking boost pressure. If bending a rod is a concern you can buy the 16T turbo housing and get the corresponding billet wheel. Remember all TDO4HL turbos are all compatible with each other, or at least the exhaust housings, all that needs changing is the turbo housing to fit the bigger billet. I would also like to say the 15G and 16T are very similar in flow characteristics so there is not a lot to gain in going from a 15G to a 16T, thou a good ECU tune will definitely give good results with a 15G or 16T. If you can try to buy the angled turbo exhaust because it allows for better air flow out of the turbo which will keep boost pressures from spiking and allow for more into the turbo. As a note my 19T will be tuned towards 18 PSI which is about the max for this turbo and may not be as fast as the 16T in getting up to speed but the 19T will start pulling like a train in 3rd gear and I will eventually zoom past an equivalent tune but with a 16T. Looking into the stock inter-cooler which I thought was good, actually turned out to be fine but only for stock builds. Because I will be drawing more air into my turbo, the stock inter-cooler will not be handle the pressure and the temperatures will rise leading to poor spooling and thus a new inter-cooler will be added courtesy of Snabb. Their inter-cooler is very similar to do88's but is 100 dollars so this is the best inter-cooler. For a little better throttle response I added reverse inter-cooler piping, but this can be neglected because it is not entirely justified by 250 dollars, especially when the inter-cooler is 380, the benefits are not entirely justified.

Silicone Piping

Silicone piping is technically part of the stage zero but due to the amount silicone piping I found I made it's own section. The reason for silicone piping is to handle high temperatures and high boost pressures. The piping includes radiator pipes, expansion tank pipes, turbo coolant pipes, and TCV lines. The Turbo inlet hose is an upgraded inlet air mass meter to turbo connection. This hose is a bit shorter and has less curves therefore creating a more free flowing system and will allow a little better fuel economy and possible a couple extra horse power.

Sound System

I would like to state that this mod list is catered to my needs and my cars needs. For example the sound system added and upholstery update is for personal use because my car is a little rough in the interior and I'm looking into changing it out. The sound system will be easy to change out please note that sedans have two sound decks on the back dash and wagons have pillar speakers in the back. I myself have a sedan and have the back deck speakers which are reported to be 6x9 but that requires special mods and a 5x7 fits better if interested check out this link by blackyrd on volvoforums: http://www.volvo-forums.com/t21128-ster ... -wagon.htm . I have also changed the double din sound system to a single din touchscreen GPS navigation system. I did this to also fit a single din gauge cluster underneath the radio system. Some other things to keep in mind are ohm rating on speakers. The ohm affects power output which is directly related to frequency, what we hear, so if the frequency is messed up then the sound will be bad. So keep in mind the different kinds of speakers there are and how you would have to wire your speakers.

Upholstery

the upholstery I couldn't find too much on other than on YouTube and that related to basic carpet installation on cars in general. I have also added into the upholstery cost sound dampening material because if you have noticed like me is that older cars tend to make a little more noise so to cut on that I added sound dampening. Because I may not even upholster my seats I included the about average cost of each set. The front seats are two individual and the back seat is a whole big seat.

Right that just about sums it up I could ramble on for days about various other things to do and what not to do and other things that would be pointless but that would take a lot more time then I care to mention. I have looked into what I need and I just thought it would be cool to put all this information in one spot. I have looked through so many forums and countless comparisons to see what would be best and this is what I got. The main reason I wanted to post this was to put an end to the adventure that it was to come up with the best tune for the car that I love so much. Please feel free to comment or ask questions I have way more information then what I am posting. I cannot give all my secrets in one swoop, that would be no fun.

Additional Information:

If you cannot find a part number on the actual part or on any forum check out this website they offer full diagrams with labeled numbers, their description, part numbers, and the average price of the parts, on any Volvo ever made:
http://www.volvopartswebstore.com

This link is for YouTube DIY's on fixing Volvo P80 cars. This is through the courtesy of FCPeuro.com aka FCP Groton for all their hard work and excellent honest parts. I have personally rebuilt my entire front suspension, water pump, and shocks, through the use of their parts and videos.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 983CE8F25F

I also have to give a shout out to Robert DIY who is also on YouTube. This guy deserves true praise. He has devoted a lot of his life to helping Volvo owners so my thanks to you sir and I just noticed today that you are in the hospital so I hope you get better man. He has everything on his channel from simple things like tips to completely rebuilding your head which is what aided me in my rebuild.
https://www.youtube.com/user/RSpi007

I also want to thank IPD they have a lot of quality information and this is their YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/IpdVolvo

I also recommend checking out ARD Tuning for Performance parts they offer a lot of quality performance parts for a decent price. For me they have the R exhaust manifold and 19T turbo which are both hard to come by for a good price.
http://www.ardideas.com/

Transmission Oil Cooler install: http://www.___.com/forums ... hp?t=37869

Robert DIY's Head Replacement for Volvo 850: http://www.atthetipwebs.com/technologyi ... gasket.htm
-this is a step by step with all tools, parts, and chemicals/gasket maker needed.

If you plan on going to a junkyard to find a used turbocharger and want to know what Volvo has what turbocharger check out this link from FCP Euro. It has all of that information plus some more about why they fail and what to avoid when switching to a bigger turbo.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/blog/posts/volv ... swap-guide

If you can manage befriend the guy at your local Bap Geon Import Auto Parts. I have and it's not that it has saved me money, thou the parts after the discount I get is about the same for online parts, but that I get the parts the next day for free as opposed to ordering online and get them a week later.

SPREADSHEET FILE:

 

Stage Zero.xlsx

[Tightmopedman9]

Back in the day people said the 19T was a 'spikey' turbo and that due to its' early boost onset it would bend rods. The root cause of the problem was considered to be inherit in the turbo, but in fact it was due to poor tuning and boost control. The ARD 'spool control wheel' isn't going to fix this problem as it isn't an actual problem, and the spool control wheel is seemingly made up. The spool control wheel is just a copy of the blade aero design by Garrett, and improves the efficiency at higher pressure ratios, which isn't all that useful on a 2.3L. I've talked about this in the past here, albeit regarding a K24, the underlying concept is the same. With that said, I have tuned both stock cast wheel 19Ts and the spool control wheels and have found the billet wheel to be good for a few more pounds of boost, while being able to keep an acceptable amount of ignition advance.  I don't think it is worth the extra money, if anything I would recommend find a stock 19T with a 7CM outlet housing a lower blade count turbine wheel. I have a customer who had two 19Ts and has posted his spare on Sweedespeed, I think for only $350.

18-19psi is near the limit of the 19T, and I wouldn't recommend running past 20psi. 

With any TD04HL turbo if the low load timing is set properly the boost can be brought in as soon as possible without causing any harm to the engine. 

The TCV that ARD sells is just a MAC 3 port solenoids with the appropriate electrical connector and some 1/8NPT to vacuum nipples. You can make your own equivalent one for under $45. 

The phenolic spacer will reduce IATs, but IPD's design is much too thick. Moving the manifold from the head that much causes the injectors to spray onto the spacer itself, causing odd fuel wall film behaviour. I've noticed erratic fueling on cars with these spacers installed.

The reverse intercooler piping is not going to gain you any power. It will reduce the amount of lag when your floor it and your RPMs are within the range of the turbo being able to produce boost, and that's it. Your boost will not come in any sooner in the RPM range. An upgraded intercooler is going to increase your power, period. Any car I tune with a stock intercooler has to have the timing retarded significantly compared to those with upgraded intercoolers. The stock intercooler heat soaks very quickly and IATs will quickly rise leading to knock unless the timing is pulled back. 

White or blue injectors are not large enough to accommodate the flow needed for a 19T. Greens are the minimum size I recommend for every 18t/19t tune I do.

Also, a 19T will flow roughly 1050kg/hr, or almost 200kg/hr more than what the stock MAF can measure. You need to upgrade your MAF housing if you want to get as much as you can from your 19t setup. 

[gdog]

On 1/15/2017 at 4:50 PM, hcaznacnud said:

Hello, this is my first ever post. ..., to the special "cripple" zones that help draw shock away from the driver and into the car in an accident.

OK you win; largest first post on VS, possibly ever!!  

Sorry, no prize   

BTW: assume you meant "crumple"?

Listen to tmm9.

IPD tune and exhaust?  You must have money to burn..?  Only thing i get from them any more are sway bars.

[hcaznacnud]

On 1/16/2017 at 0:31 AM, Tightmopedman9 said:

Back in the day people said the 19T was a 'spikey' turbo and that due to its' early boost onset it would bend rods. The root cause of the problem was considered to be inherit in the turbo, but in fact it was due to poor tuning and boost control. The ARD 'spool control wheel' isn't going to fix this problem as it isn't an actual problem, and the spool control wheel is seemingly made up. The spool control wheel is just a copy of the blade aero design by Garrett, and improves the efficiency at higher pressure ratios, which isn't all that useful on a 2.3L. I've talked about this in the past here, albeit regarding a K24, the underlying concept is the same. With that said, I have tuned both stock cast wheel 19Ts and the spool control wheels and have found the billet wheel to be good for a few more pounds of boost, while being able to keep an acceptable amount of ignition advance.  I don't think it is worth the extra money, if anything I would recommend find a stock 19T with a 7CM outlet housing a lower blade count turbine wheel. I have a customer who had two 19Ts and has posted his spare on Sweedespeed, I think for only $350.

18-19psi is near the limit of the 19T, and I wouldn't recommend running past 20psi. 

With any TD04HL turbo if the low load timing is set properly the boost can be brought in as soon as possible without causing any harm to the engine. 

The TCV that ARD sells is just a MAC 3 port solenoids with the appropriate electrical connector and some 1/8NPT to vacuum nipples. You can make your own equivalent one for under $45. 

The phenolic spacer will reduce IATs, but IPD's design is much too thick. Moving the manifold from the head that much causes the injectors to spray onto the spacer itself, causing odd fuel wall film behaviour. I've noticed erratic fueling on cars with these spacers installed.

The reverse intercooler piping is not going to gain you any power. It will reduce the amount of lag when your floor it and your RPMs are within the range of the turbo being able to produce boost, and that's it. Your boost will not come in any sooner in the RPM range. An upgraded intercooler is going to increase your power, period. Any car I tune with a stock intercooler has to have the timing retarded significantly compared to those with upgraded intercoolers. The stock intercooler heat soaks very quickly and IATs will quickly rise leading to knock unless the timing is pulled back. 

White or blue injectors are not large enough to accommodate the flow needed for a 19T. Greens are the minimum size I recommend for every 18t/19t tune I do.

Also, a 19T will flow roughly 1050kg/hr, or almost 200kg/hr more than what the stock MAF can measure. You need to upgrade your MAF housing if you want to get as much as you can from your 19t setup. 

Sorry for taking so long to reply had to look into how to fix the problems both of you have addressed please feel free to make more comments it is always appreciated!

I would like to say thanks for the input Tightmopedman9.

To start with the 19T I have opted to change spool control to the standard 9 blade. I tried to find the guy you mentioned selling his turbo but had no luck. I did some ebay searching to find a couple for sale but they do seem a bit sketchy in buying them. I do not plan on doing a lot of this tune until I have a good amount saved for the majority of the tune mainly the exhaust, which to comment with gdog I have found an OBX exhaust for way cheaper online I have posted the link to it in the spreadsheet and I will be using this instead of IPD's, along with an ARD tune, turbo, injectors, and other misc. things that are important. So in short I will wait for little while and see whats for sell to get the best deal.

As for the TCV I can definitely make my own but I am trying to keep fabrication to a minimum. Looking into making one it is fairly straight forward but I know what I will make will not look as nearly as good as the one already made.

I was also thinking that the phenolic spacer would actual cause that problem, and looking into it there are a lot of mixed feelings about it but if there is a possibility of failure then it is not worth it to me.

Looking into the intercooler I did indeed find the very thing you stated. I originally had the intercooler added to the list but took it off based on some bad reviews I found which are now discredited, and it thus now back on the list. For the reverse intercooler piping I may not add it because it is not entirely justified by the $250 price tag but I will keep it in the spreadsheet for future reference and people that are interested.

I do not know why I said I would use white injectors because I changed my mind and changed them to the green ones for that very reason. I guess I just wanted to state more facts that you can just google.

Looking into the MAF I found out that is indeed a problem and I did not even think about it so I really appreciate the knowledge and awareness. I looked into it and I will add a S60/960 (from what I found they are the same and utilize the same type of connection as the 850) MAF plus some other fabricated parts. Look in the spreadsheet for a little more info.

On 1/16/2017 at 9:37 PM, gdog said:

OK you win; largest first post on VS, possibly ever!!  

Sorry, no prize   

BTW: assume you meant "crumple"?

Listen to tmm9.

IPD tune and exhaust?  You must have money to burn..?  Only thing i get from them any more are sway bars.

thanks for the input gdog

and yes I meant "crumble" the post has been edited.

The main reason I went with IPD is for their reputation, but I just looked back into their exhaust but they no longer have the whole set just the downpipe, therefore I have gone with OBX's downpipe for only 500, way cheaper than IPD's. As for the tune I have gone with ARD's tune with supported modifications, they have a great reputation and the tune will be at least 200 cheaper. So thanks for saving me about 600 dollars, I appreciate it.

NOTE: I have updated the post and spreadsheet accordingly so if you wanna check it out feel free, it's for all to see.

[gdog]

42 minutes ago, hcaznacnud said:

 

I click reply but this site insists on quoting..  argh

tmm9 does tunes you know; great rep and I'm sure he'd save you money over ard's.  No disrespect to Lucky but did you notice how many of his tunes are for sale around here (for cheap)?

[Tightmopedman9]

PM me and we can exchange e-mails. I can have him contact you directly about the 19t, if it is still for sale, which I believe it is. 

[EricF]

Thanks for the nice post!

Although most of what I had written back in the day has become quite dated in terms especially of tuning (does anyone even chip tune anymore??), I was fortunate enough to help devise setups and do hands on upgrading turning wrenches on dozens of 850s back then.  Never for money, it was just a hobby and I always felt 850s should be as approachable as 240s and 740s had gotten a reputation for being.  Because they are really quite simple to work on and upgrade and pretty solid cars.

One thing that was consistent was inability to control 19T at higher boost levels.  Sure, not much of a problem at 15-17psi, but I don't feel the turbo is worth it at that boost level either.  The issue was at 21-24 psi, with various types of MBC (ball-spring, bleed valve, hybrid, etc) and EBC (AVC-R, Profec B spec 1 and 2, etc), and stock management with multiple types of solenoids.  It is at those boost levels that I was able to get the performance out of those turbos that I did (trapping 107+ multiple times with a TD04HL especially with our tuning back then is pretty good!).

But runaway boost especially at lower RPM and high throttle was very common and difficult to avoid.  

 

Anyway, I feel like I am reminiscing and pretty detached from the current state of affairs at this point, but there are certain aspects of this stuff where I can say as much as anyone else that I have BTDT ;)

 

I should also add, that although I had at least two cars that were truly significantly faster (My ill fated 242GT project at 2-3 points in time, and the silver 850 after I upgraded from the 19T and was running 7250 RPM and 24-26 psi on the T3/T04E 57 trim)... I never got any timeslips anywhere near what that 19T-powered M56 850 had.  Stock IC, stock injectors (I know, I know), and all.   What a great platform and elegant in its simplicity in retrospect.  And it went down the track dozens of times, very consistently, never skipping a beat.

[hcaznacnud]

7 hours ago, EricF said:

Thanks for the nice post!

Although most of what I had written back in the day has become quite dated in terms especially of tuning (does anyone even chip tune anymore??), I was fortunate enough to help devise setups and do hands on upgrading turning wrenches on dozens of 850s back then.  Never for money, it was just a hobby and I always felt 850s should be as approachable as 240s and 740s had gotten a reputation for being.  Because they are really quite simple to work on and upgrade and pretty solid cars.

One thing that was consistent was inability to control 19T at higher boost levels.  Sure, not much of a problem at 15-17psi, but I don't feel the turbo is worth it at that boost level either.  The issue was at 21-24 psi, with various types of MBC (ball-spring, bleed valve, hybrid, etc) and EBC (AVC-R, Profec B spec 1 and 2, etc), and stock management with multiple types of solenoids.  It is at those boost levels that I was able to get the performance out of those turbos that I did (trapping 107+ multiple times with a TD04HL especially with our tuning back then is pretty good!).

But runaway boost especially at lower RPM and high throttle was very common and difficult to avoid.  

 

Anyway, I feel like I am reminiscing and pretty detached from the current state of affairs at this point, but there are certain aspects of this stuff where I can say as much as anyone else that I have BTDT ;)

 

I should also add, that although I had at least two cars that were truly significantly faster (My ill fated 242GT project at 2-3 points in time, and the silver 850 after I upgraded from the 19T and was running 7250 RPM and 24-26 psi on the T3/T04E 57 trim)... I never got any timeslips anywhere near what that 19T-powered M56 850 had.  Stock intercooler, stock injectors (I know, I know), and all.   What a great platform and elegant in its simplicity in retrospect.  And it went down the track dozens of times, very consistently, never skipping a beat.

Hey man I appreciate you, the very guy I quoted, to take the time to comment on my post.

Some of your stuff is dated but it still very relevant. All of the points you made in your post was all true and had to be taken into consideration, because at the very least you need to know what your car can handle maybe not change it in the tune but at least aware. And with MBC or EBC you can manually check the boost of the turbo to avoid said problems. Doing some digging around as, Tightmopedman9 pointed out originally in the post, is that due to poor ecu tunes the engine has trouble calculating all the variables that go into a car every given millisecond, literally, from injectors to timing, and this is what causes the bent rods and various other failures.

And your right this is kinda an old affair at this point. I very rarely see 850's on the road anymore. I see more in the junkyard than on the street, which is good because my car is now becoming a classic which makes it all the sweeter but because of this it is becoming very hard to get parts. But I digress this car is now more timeless and for that I appreciate her and all her problems.

This is one thing I have diffenetly looked at when I got this car. It is a family sedan, I have the 850 Turbo 4DR, not a racecar. It will never be that car with the best track speed, just a good daily driver that I can have a little fun getting groceries in. 

[RedCar850R]

I figure I should add my 2 cents.

Before I got a 19T turbo (sc wheel seems fine), I had a 16T turbo /w white injectors.

After sorting out a leaky CBV, the car ran really well at 17PSI with manual boost controller. Also straight flange 3" downpipe, no cat, forged rods.

I didn't read your WHOLE post. But it sounds like you only plan to get a cat back exhaust?

With that in mind, for your car I think a 16T or 18T might actually be most appropriate.

I've been quite impressed with a boost control solenoid over MBC. On stock rods, BCS is probably best good way to go.

Maybe look at 3" downpipes and get a safe tune for 16T turbo? And go from there.