Commander Riker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Ever since I've swapped this VR to a manual, it's had an odd starting issue. It currently has a Hilton base tune, and it's about to get final tunes once my exhaust is completed. The issue is that it's very tough to start. Once running and it clears it's throat, it is fine. I've put about 8K on this setup. When attempting to start, the first crank it will just turn over, not fire. The second crank I can hear the motor spin a little bit faster and with modulating the throttle pedal, it might will start. Sometimes it takes 3-4 cranks. At the end of a failed crank, sometimes when I let off the key it will fire once, sort of a "puff" can be heard from the exhaust. Throughout all of these start attempts, the engine will very randomly get hung up. It almost sounds like pre-ignition. Once the car does finally start, it usually is sputtering until I clear it's throat. The smell of exhaust is rich with fuel, so I don't think it's a fueling issue. I've read on the webs about the reversal of polarity, tried this last night and it made things worse, but it did start! I don't think that's supposed to happen. Current setup is with a viva single mass flywheel and the clutch is from a diesel car, apparently, which I found out after the fact and I was trying to inquire with ViVA about why it was so chattery. EDIT: I've already replaced the crank position sensor. Same exact issue. Also replaced the starter with an OEM instead of a reman, as the reman seamed weaker when turning the engine over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Does it ever start and immediately die? if so, check the harness at your IMMO. It's in the driver foot well on the steering column Have you always had the Hilton tune since you did the swap? Have you tried jumping the fuel pump relay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 I got the tune right after the swap. It did run the same way if my memory serves me correctly, but it's been a year. I only started it to get a readout of the tune for him, and he was super awesome to get me a drivable base tune last year so I could make a meet. Took it almost 300 miles on it's first journey. I've not tried jumping the relay, but it seems to be drowning in fuel when it does start finally. I don't think it's getting fuel is the issue. EDIT: Never any issues with it dying after startup. Wanted to make that clear on this thread. Once it's going, it's great. Drove it from Texas to Ohio and back in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdog Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'd ck the fuel rail pressure during start up. This vintage has a fuel pressure sensor that is a common failure point if I'm not mistaken. It may not be the issue, but you should rule it out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hootie6828 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Sounds like injectors could be leaking and flooding it or actually hyrolocking a cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 hours ago, gdog said: I'd ck the fuel rail pressure during start up. This vintage has a fuel pressure sensor that is a common failure point if I'm not mistaken. It may not be the issue, but you should rule it out.. Once it starts up, it's very rich for a few seconds. I don't think it's lack of fuel pressure, but I will check it out. 2 hours ago, hootie6828 said: Sounds like injectors could be leaking and flooding it or actually hyrolocking a cylinder. It sounds like this, but if I disconnect the crank sensor, it never does it. It's pre-ignition I'm pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdog Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 10 hours ago, Commander Riker said: Once it starts up, it's very rich for a few seconds. I don't think it's lack of fuel pressure, but I will check it out. Low fuel pressure will cause poor atomization at the injectors causing fuel to dribble into the cylinders and pool => rich mixture and/or un-burned fuel out the exhaust.. Again, not saying that's it, just something to ck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 Check car with vida/dice ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyBrickIsSlow Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 I know this post has been idle a while, but I will toss out my two cents anyway. I had the same issue with my car after the m66 swap. I tried everything you could imagine, right down to removing the trans to make sure the mating of the bell housing and block was clean, and that i had all the teeth on my flywheel. I finally found a TSB about a long crank issue a few months ago. The harness for the cam and crank sensor runs on the front of the block and behind the starter. While cranking the electrical noise that the poorly insulated starter motor creates was bleeding into the harness and causing the ecu to see inaccurate sensor readings. I tried to shield the harness and failed, only to finally remove the starter bolts and pull the harness to the front of the starter. Problem solved. I have no idea why this didn't happen with the auto trans. I can only assume somewhere in the process i tugged on something to pull the harness closer to the starter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted April 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 On 3/18/2017 at 9:30 PM, MyBrickIsSlow said: I know this post has been idle a while, but I will toss out my two cents anyway. I had the same issue with my car after the m66 swap. I tried everything you could imagine, right down to removing the trans to make sure the mating of the bell housing and block was clean, and that i had all the teeth on my flywheel. I finally found a TSB about a long crank issue a few months ago. The harness for the cam and crank sensor runs on the front of the block and behind the starter. While cranking the electrical noise that the poorly insulated starter motor creates was bleeding into the harness and causing the ecu to see inaccurate sensor readings. I tried to shield the harness and failed, only to finally remove the starter bolts and pull the harness to the front of the starter. Problem solved. I have no idea why this didn't happen with the auto trans. I can only assume somewhere in the process i tugged on something to pull the harness closer to the starter... Thanks for this input. I had been busy with work and wanted to report back. I did this as well... and you're right, the harness for the cam and crank sensors was in the same position as when this car was an auto. Today I resolved this issue completely, but in addition to moving the cables as far away from the starter as possible, also added a ground cable from the transmission to the negative battery cable. Car not only starts better, but runs exactly how it should and feels more healthy. Crazy, but I wanted to document this here for the future in case someone else runs into this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb5 Posted April 9, 2017 Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 Thanks for following up Lucas! Cam/crank and starter wire routing are something I should take a look at on my wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Riker Posted April 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 14 hours ago, andyb5 said: Thanks for following up Lucas! Cam/crank and starter wire routing are something I should take a look at on my wagon. Just so you know, I did nothing with the routing of the starter wire. This all has to do with that part of the harness being near the starter case and/or the ground between the engine and transmission. Should also add I was missing 1 transmission bolt right next to the starter, which I used with the beefy ground cable I got from the parts store. I feel like an idiot in that I had almost come to accept this is how the car ran. Hell, I drove it to Ohio in December... and the past year almost to the day it's been a bitch to start every time. Now it's like a normal car! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy. Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 4/10/2017 at 8:18 AM, Commander Riker said: Now it's like a normal car! lol I'm so glad you still have this Lucas hope you are doing well down south! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb5 Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 Good timing on the bump, I was about to search for this thread because my new Venetian has a hard start issue and I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the root cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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