Sway Bars

[dancetheman]

wow this is an interesting thread....

i might just skip the IPD sways for now then if R sways are almost the same

[turbobrick]

slater, when you pickup that front sway you're more than welcome to measure my rear sway as i still have it.

[Slater]

slater, when you pickup that front sway you're more than welcome to measure my rear sway as i still have it.

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10-4

[drPheta]

Hmmm, I'm gonna have to measure my sways diameter then. However, the poly bushings the IPDs come with will make the bar even stiffer.

[Slater]

Hmmm, I'm gonna have to measure my sways diameter then. However, the poly bushings the IPDs come with will make the bar even stiffer.

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That's why I was going to buy some poly bushings for my stock sway bar or make some delrin ones for total stiffness! Then my stock bar would be "as good" as the IPD bar, only thinner for less understeer! Viola! The secret is out

[orange850t]

I was doing some reading on this and came up with the same answer as you slater. I was planning on getting the stock R bar for my wagon and then trying the smallest front bar made. I find it hard to believe that it is possible to get a car as unbalanced as ours to oversteer without a rediculously stiff rear and alot of weight reduction up front.

for those interested

Antiroll bars

[Plan_B]

I was doing some reading on this and came up with the same answer as you slater.  I was planning on getting the stock R bar for my wagon and then trying the smallest front bar made.  I find it hard to believe that it is possible to get a car as unbalanced as ours to oversteer without a rediculously stiff rear and alot of weight reduction up front.

for those interested

Antiroll bars

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I have stock R sway bars in my living room if you want them $75.00+ shipping.

[orange850t]

I have stock R sway bars in my living room if you want them $75.00+ shipping.

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I might very soon. i guess this would be dibs then huh.....

[Slater]

I was doing some reading on this and came up with the same answer as you slater.  I was planning on getting the stock R bar for my wagon and then trying the smallest front bar made.  I find it hard to believe that it is possible to get a car as unbalanced as ours to oversteer without a rediculously stiff rear and alot of weight reduction up front.

for those interested

Antiroll bars

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That article hits it on the head exactly.

And you're right on your plan. You obviously know how to tune a chassis correctly unlike a lot of people.

The important thing to remember is that 99% of manufacturers - OEMs and aftermarket - err on the side of caution and sell sway bar kits that understeer. Since 95% of the public do not know how to drive properly, and certainly don't know how to handle a car in an "emergency" situtation, massive understeer and plowing through turns is nice and safe. This reduces crashes and thus lawsuits.

However, for the 5% of the population that DO know how to drive, the choices are limited in tuning your chassis. The aftermarket provides some choices, but again in most cases the choices are still going to err on the side if understeer. This is why IPD always associates the word "safety" with their sway bar kit. They don't sell a "Performance sway bar kit", they sell a "SAFETY sway bar kit". The nice fat rear bar is nice, but when paired to the REALLY fat front bar, it cancels out the effects of the rear bar. The car feels better because there is less body roll, but it still understeers like a pig. In this case, the only other option is to do your own chassis tuning using a combination of parts. That often means you can use thicker ot thinner stock sway bars from other models, in addition to portions of aftermarket kits, to get the chassis tuned the way you want. Of course a sway bar is just acting like an additional spring, so IMO spring/strut tuning should be the first way to attack the problem and is much more effective than using a sway bar to do the same thing. But sway bars are cheap and easy and provide instant and noticeable results for people.

In the end though it's all personal preference. Not everyone is comfortable with the same TLLTD.

- Slater

[Slater]

Also, I found out that the stock rear bar IS hollow. So yes, the IPD solid bar is significantly stiffer than the stock hollow bar, even though they are the same diameter.

Exactly how much stiffer I do not know yet. I still have to calculate it.

[dancetheman]

That's why I was going to buy some poly bushings for my stock sway bar or make some delrin ones for total stiffness! Then my stock bar would be "as good" as the IPD bar, only thinner for less understeer! Viola! The secret is out

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hey slater...

tell me if you figure out a way to cut down the understeer...

i hate it when it happens at autox, i'd rather be able to oversteer thru the turn (ricer style haha)

[kenhoeve]

Also, I found out that the stock rear bar IS hollow. So yes, the IPD solid bar is significantly stiffer than the stock hollow bar, even though they are the same diameter.

Exactly how much stiffer I do not know yet. I still have to calculate it.

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If I am correct in assuming the important stiffness is when it is in tension(no bending moment applied), let me know the wall thickness of the stock bar and I can tell you how much stiffer the Ipd bar is. The type of aluminium alloy is also important, 2021 for example.

[wattsat]

Do they not require an inspection hole like other sanctioning bodies? That makes it very easy to tell if the tube thickness is correct.

(used for verifying that roll cares are not really just lighter muffler tubing of the same OD as chromoly cage tubing but at a significant weight savings - old time cheating trick).

[wattsat]

tell me if you figure out a way to cut down the understeer...

i hate it when it happens at autox, i'd rather be able to oversteer thru the turn (ricer style haha)

Ways to Lessen Understear.

1. Reduce entry speed to the corner.

2. Reduce speed and throttle through the corner.

3. Use a smaller front swaybar.

4. Follow this link.

I helped a guy shave 2 seconds off his times at an autocross by showing him the correct entry speed through just one corner. He was going into a 160 off camber corner with too much speed. He was then applying too much power through the corner. Then his exit to the next corner was wrong because the understeer pushed him far off line. by the way this was in a 96 SVT Mustang with a Supercharger, full Road Race suspension and a roll bar. He was not a novice driver. He was a seasoned Road Racer but had no inclination on how to do an AutoX.

I always try to remember the wise words of my good friend that was BSL and DSL National Champion.

Slower is FASTER.

[dancetheman]

thanks!

yea i've been going slower now since i can't drift thru corners like a ricer