Bloodiest Month Yet In Iraq

[Che'_Moderator]

Well, when we are fighting this war 10 years from now, and it is still bloody and going no where, you can say I was right.

~Mike

We have been involved in conflicts pretty much solid for the last 200 years. 10 years? Hell we built the airbases I say we stay. Which I think we will. Notice were still in Korea. Look at the Philipeenes. They thought they wanted us to leave. Look what happened when we did. I am all for what you aare saying. I truely wish it was that way. But what you want and the way it is are two different things. Until the world:

1. Becomes bigger

2. We blow ourselves off it

3. Practice true isolationalism under total draconian rule

Thats the way it will stay. Not to be harsh but people die. Some for good reasons, some for bad. That cycle is not going away. Here is my biggest beef.

WE ARE AN ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING CHOOSE THEIR CAREER. ITS NOT LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE TO SERVE.

[RAzOR]

We have been involved in conflicts pretty much solid for the last 200 years. 10 years? Hell we built the airbases I say we stay. Which I think we will. Notice were still in Korea. Look at the Philipeenes. They thought they wanted us to leave. Look what happened when we did. I am all for what you aare saying. I truely wish it was that way. But what you want and the way it is are two different things. Until the world:

1. Becomes bigger

2. We blow ourselves off it

3. Practice true isolationalism under total draconian rule

Thats the way it will stay. Not to be harsh but people die. Some for good reasons, some for bad. That cycle is not going away. Here is my biggest beef.

WE ARE AN ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING CHOOSE THEIR CAREER. ITS NOT LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE TO SERVE.

You forgot:

4. Disband our military, grow flowers, extend a friendly hand and song of peace and brotherhood, and then get blown up.

[fastboy]

You forgot:

4. Disband our military, grow flowers, extend a friendly hand and song of peace and brotherhood, and then get blown up.

HIPPIE! :angry:

[Che'_Moderator]

You forgot:

4. Disband our military, grow flowers, extend a friendly hand and song of peace and brotherhood, and then get blown up.

That was 3. I listed stage 3.1 on aaccident ;)

[TM850R]

We have been involved in conflicts pretty much solid for the last 200 years. 10 years? Hell we built the airbases I say we stay. Which I think we will. Notice were still in Korea. Look at the Philipeenes. They thought they wanted us to leave. Look what happened when we did. I am all for what you aare saying. I truely wish it was that way. But what you want and the way it is are two different things. Until the world:

1. Becomes bigger

2. We blow ourselves off it

3. Practice true isolationalism under total draconian rule

Thats the way it will stay. Not to be harsh but people die. Some for good reasons, some for bad. That cycle is not going away. Here is my biggest beef.

WE ARE AN ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING CHOOSE THEIR CAREER. ITS NOT LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE TO SERVE.

Simply put and true. We cant leave. We need at least 10 years to establish a stable government and be sure they can control the country. Saddam was actually pretty good at controlling his own country and kept the "terrorists" out. He himself did this through brutal dictation but its better than communism, right? Anyways, I dont like the war as much as the next person and I think its sad that our men have to die over there. Chuck does have a point though, these men and women chose to join the military and knew that they would have to fight for their country if need be. I dont really understand why people make a huge fuss over some soldiers dieing. Thats what happens in war. Be happy we arent like Iran and send human wave attacks into Iraq and kill (a combined total between the two countries) over 1 million men. Obviously Iraq doesnt have a military anymore and the only thing that is stopping peace are extremist groups that dont like the US in the country. Hell, I wouldnt want another country in my town either, but they think we are evil, thats just the what they were taught. If you got screwed by us a couple times, you would think the same thing too.

Anyways, we need to stay there for the long run. We are committed now and if we leave this one unfinished, we are going to have to become fully isolated because other countries will not take us seriously anymore.

[USMC850T]

This is a firsthand perspective from a few months ago.

Myths of Iraq

By Ralph Peters

During a recent visit to Baghdad, I saw an enormous failure. On the part of our media. The reality in the streets, day after day, bore little resemblance to the sensational claims of civil war and disaster in the headlines.

No one with first-hand experience of Iraq would claim the country's in rosy condition, but the situation on the ground is considerably more promising than the American public has been led to believe. Lurid exaggerations and instant myths obscure real, if difficult, progress.

I left Baghdad more optimistic than I was before this visit. While cynicism, political bias and the pressure of a 24/7 news cycle accelerate a race to the bottom in reporting, there are good reasons to be soberly hopeful about Iraq's future.

Much could still go wrong. The Arab genius for failure could still spoil everything. We've made grave mistakes. Still, it's difficult to understand how any first-hand observer could declare that Iraq's been irrevocably "lost."

Consider just a few of the inaccuracies served up by the media:

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen. Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad, I found children playing and, in most neighborhoods, business as usual. Iraq can be deadly, but, more often, it's just dreary.

Iraqi disunity. Factional differences are real, but overblown in the reporting. Few Iraqis support calls for religious violence. After the Samarra bombing, only rogue militias and criminals responded to the demagogues' calls for vengeance. Iraqis refused to play along, staging an unrecognized triumph of passive resistance.

Expanding terrorism. On the contrary, foreign terrorists, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, have lost ground. They've alienated Iraqis of every stripe. Iraqis regard the foreigners as murderers, wreckers and blasphemers, and they want them gone. The Samarra attack may, indeed, have been a tipping point--against the terrorists.

Hatred of the U.S. military. If anything surprised me in the streets of Baghdad, it was the surge in the popularity of U.S. troops among both Shias and Sunnis. In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed. Instead of being viewed as occupiers, we're increasingly seen as impartial and well-intentioned.

The appeal of the religious militias. They're viewed as mafias. Iraqis want them disarmed and disbanded. Just ask the average citizen.

The failure of the Iraqi army. Instead, the past month saw a major milestone in the maturation of Iraq's military. During the mini-crisis that followed the Samarra bombing, the Iraqi army put over 100,000 soldiers into the country's streets. They defused budding confrontations and calmed the situation without killing a single civilian. And Iraqis were proud to have their own army protecting them. The Iraqi army's morale soared as a result of its success.

Reconstruction efforts have failed. Just not true. The American goal was never to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure in its entirety. Iraqis have to do that. Meanwhile, slum-dwellers utterly neglected by Saddam Hussein's regime are getting running water and sewage systems for the first time. The Baathist regime left the country in a desolate state while Saddam built palaces. The squalor has to be seen to be believed. But the hopeless now have hope.

The electricity system is worse than before the war. Untrue again. The condition of the electric grid under the old regime was appalling. Yet, despite insurgent attacks, the newly revamped system produced 5,300 megawatts last summer--a full thousand megawatts more than the peak under Saddam Hussein. Shortages continue because demand soared--newly free Iraqis went on a buying spree, filling their homes with air conditioners, appliances and the new national symbol, the satellite dish. Nonetheless, satellite photos taken during the hours of darkness show Baghdad as bright as Damascus.

Plenty of serious problems remain in Iraq, from bloodthirsty terrorism to the unreliability of the police. Iran and Syria indulge in deadly mischief. The infrastructure lags generations behind the country's needs. Corruption is widespread. Tribal culture is pernicious. Women’s rights are threatened. And there's no shortage of trouble-making demagogues.

Nonetheless, the real story of the civil-war-that-wasn't is one of the dog that didn't bark. Iraqis resisted the summons to retributive violence. Mundane life prevailed. After a day and a half of squabbling, the political factions returned to the negotiating table. Iraqis increasingly take responsibility for their own security, easing the burden on U.S. forces. And the people of Iraq want peace, not a reign of terror.

But the foreign media have become a destructive factor, extrapolating daily crises from minor incidents. Part of this is ignorance. Some of it is willful. None of it is helpful.

The dangerous nature of journalism in Iraq has created a new phenomenon, the all-powerful local stringer. Unwilling to stray too far from secure facilities and their bodyguards, reporters rely heavily on Iraqi assistance in gathering news. And Iraqi stringers, some of whom have their own political agendas, long ago figured out that Americans prefer bad news to good news. The Iraqi leg-men earn blood money for unbalanced, often-hysterical claims, while the Journalism 101 rule of seeking confirmation from a second source has been discarded in the pathetic race for headlines.

To enhance their own indispensability, Iraqi stringers exaggerate the danger to Western journalists (which is real enough, but need not paralyze a determined reporter). Dependence on the unverified reports of local hires has become the dirty secret of semi-celebrity journalism in Iraq as Western journalists succumb to a version of Stockholm Syndrome in which they convince themselves that their Iraqi sources and stringers are exceptions to every failing and foible in the Middle East. The mindset resembles the old colonialist conviction that, while other "boys" might lie and steal, our house-boy's a faithful servant.

The result is that we're being told what Iraqi stringers know they can sell and what distant editors crave, not what's actually happening.

While there are and have been any number of courageous, ethical journalists reporting from Iraq, others know little more of the reality of the streets than you do. They report what they are told by others, not what they have seen themselves. The result is a distorted, unfair and disheartening picture of a country struggling to rise above its miserable history.

[TM850R]

Ralph Peters (b. 1952) is a retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel, novelist and essayist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Peters

I know Wikipedia is not the best source but I will hunt some more down.

Heres one where Peters says "civil war is closer than before". http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=23653

I dont want to shoot down that mans view (or your view) but there is a bias there from an ex-military officer.

[USMC850T]

He's written a bunch on the contemporary situation in iraq, along with some stuff in the military's scholarly journals about terrorism. http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/parameters/1993/gray.htm

Just because he is an ex officer doesn't mean his finidngs or arguments should be discounted solely on that factor.

[TM850R]

But when was that article written by him. I'm not saying he isnt qualified to make a call like that because he was an officer in the military. I am saying that he recently (August of 2006) said that civil war is not closer to becoming a reality in Iraq. Thats the second link there.

I dont have time to read through that link right now, but I will get to it later.

[DVolvoguy850T5]

Deleted by the poster ( me )

Edited December 18, 2006 by DVolvoguy850T5

[EngTech]

Grant, close this thread please.

I'M STARTING TO THINK THE PRIVATE SECURITY THAT ARE MAKING THE MOST MONEY IN THETHEIR ENTIRE LIVES ARE UP TO NO GOOD !

NOTHING LIKE 80,000 TO 120,000 A YR. TO WALK AROUND with a Big GUN and Play Hero !

Some Of them Don't want this to Stop , they'd have to go back to Unemployment or 35,000 a Yr. !

[jbilyeu]

People who say the war is unwinnable fail to grasp exaclty what is going on over there. They are the same people who said after the TET offensive vietnam was unwinnable. Anyone who is remotely familiar with Veitnam knows TET was a disaster for the vietcong and marked the beggining of their demise. By no means is it going to be easy, but then again our nation is not standing where it is today because we took the easy way out of things. I feel that I've articulated my views more than enough times. I am currently working on the first half of my senior thesis paper which addresses 4th generation warfare, what it is, the difficulties it poses, and whether we should approach it using the military or police model. I will be sure to post it up here when i've finished it.

Tet offensive was disastrous for vietcong only in so much as we had to carpet bomb the stuff out of them to recover what we lost in an otherwise successful ofensive by the vietcong.

We dropped more tons of ordinance on vietnam than we did in all of WWII

Tet showed us we had not even come close to winning hearts and minds. If we had where did all these vietcong soldiers keep coming from. They were able to draw reiforcements from all the villages. how many villagers joined the security forces of the south vietnamese government

How was this the beginning of their demise when this is what spelled out that the war was unwinable.

anyone remotely familiar with history could tell you they won we lost